A320 L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl
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A320 L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl
Can somebody please explain the logic behind this Airbus ECAM procedure?
The ECAM asks for the fuel X feed to be selected OFF (Closed). However the QRH procedure on every other aircraft I've flown, has told me to Open the Fuel Crossfeed.
If I have had an engine failure and FOB = 1500 kgs (750 each side), provided there is no fuel leak - I'd have considered the fuel imbalance (or opened fuel X feed on older versions) completed the Engine Shut down, and cleared the ECAM.
The L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl ECAM will then ask me to turn the fuel pumps on and close the X feed (OFF).
Apart from the Fuel Pump Low Pressure warning, what other timely ECAM alert do I get that I'm about to run out of fuel with 750kgs still remaining in the other wing tank?
Suppose I manage to land with 1 ton final reserve fuel remaining (as shown on FOB indication) I'd only have 250 kgs feeding my good engine (that's about 7 mins endurance).
Where am I going wrong?
The ECAM asks for the fuel X feed to be selected OFF (Closed). However the QRH procedure on every other aircraft I've flown, has told me to Open the Fuel Crossfeed.
If I have had an engine failure and FOB = 1500 kgs (750 each side), provided there is no fuel leak - I'd have considered the fuel imbalance (or opened fuel X feed on older versions) completed the Engine Shut down, and cleared the ECAM.
The L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl ECAM will then ask me to turn the fuel pumps on and close the X feed (OFF).
Apart from the Fuel Pump Low Pressure warning, what other timely ECAM alert do I get that I'm about to run out of fuel with 750kgs still remaining in the other wing tank?
Suppose I manage to land with 1 ton final reserve fuel remaining (as shown on FOB indication) I'd only have 250 kgs feeding my good engine (that's about 7 mins endurance).
Where am I going wrong?
Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 3rd Nov 2009 at 17:03. Reason: Added Airbus in search string
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Abnormals are written for one failure/caution/warning only - i.e. this procedure assumes two engines running. L+R WING TK LO LVL happens at approx 30 mins. fuel remaining.. I would hazard a guess that closing the x-feed is requested to prevent simultaneous flame-out.
I would keep the fuel x-feed open in your scenario with one engine shut-down - it is one of those situations where common sense must prevail. And you are not going wrong - you are displaying good technical understanding.
I would keep the fuel x-feed open in your scenario with one engine shut-down - it is one of those situations where common sense must prevail. And you are not going wrong - you are displaying good technical understanding.
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Hi TyroPicard.
I agree I would definitely keep the X feed open. But surely there should be a QRH or an OEB to advise me?
Every other aircraft I've flown had a Low Fuel Contents procedure which ensured all the fuel was available to all my engines - even when Engine Out.
I agree I would definitely keep the X feed open. But surely there should be a QRH or an OEB to advise me?
Every other aircraft I've flown had a Low Fuel Contents procedure which ensured all the fuel was available to all my engines - even when Engine Out.
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The after ENG SHUT DOWN ECAM procedure calls for opening the XFEED, so I guess this is overriding the LOW FUEL XFEED shut.
As for the reason to shut the valve (2 eng)... Who knows!
As for the reason to shut the valve (2 eng)... Who knows!
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But surely there should be a QRH or an OEB to advise me?
Every other aircraft I've flown had a Low Fuel Contents procedure which ensured all the fuel was available to all my engines - even when Engine Out.
To expand on
Abnormals are written for one failure/caution/warning only
manuals
Tyropicard
"if you write a procedure for every possible combination of faults the cockpit really would be full of manuals without room for a pilot..."
...especially if you are forbidden to use a laptop, as some US politicians would want
"if you write a procedure for every possible combination of faults the cockpit really would be full of manuals without room for a pilot..."
...especially if you are forbidden to use a laptop, as some US politicians would want
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I'm still confused.
It appears from your replies that originaly, the Engine Failure ECAM told me to OPEN (select ON) the X Feed and that this procedure took precedence over the Low Fuel contents ECAM.
So now my ECAM says "Monitor Fuel Imbalance" which apparently means do the imbalance QRH checklist. No where in this check list does it say turn all the fuel pumps on and leave the cross feed open. It asks me to close the X feed when the balance is complete.
As far as I can see, at present, we don't have a published Low Fuel Contents procedure when Single Engine. We seem to rely only on crew awareness.
It appears that the change in the ECAM from "Open X Feed" to "Monitor Fuel Imbalance" has been tripped up by an error in L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl ECAM procedure. I think the error is the Fuel X Feed should be selected On (Open) not Off (Closed).
What does the A330 Low Fuel Contents procedure say?
It appears from your replies that originaly, the Engine Failure ECAM told me to OPEN (select ON) the X Feed and that this procedure took precedence over the Low Fuel contents ECAM.
So now my ECAM says "Monitor Fuel Imbalance" which apparently means do the imbalance QRH checklist. No where in this check list does it say turn all the fuel pumps on and leave the cross feed open. It asks me to close the X feed when the balance is complete.
As far as I can see, at present, we don't have a published Low Fuel Contents procedure when Single Engine. We seem to rely only on crew awareness.
It appears that the change in the ECAM from "Open X Feed" to "Monitor Fuel Imbalance" has been tripped up by an error in L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl ECAM procedure. I think the error is the Fuel X Feed should be selected On (Open) not Off (Closed).
What does the A330 Low Fuel Contents procedure say?
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That is a very good point.
The IMBALANCE......MONITOR ecam action in the SHUT DOWN procedure is quite ambiguous.
It is just a monitor advice, not a prompt to carry out the inmbalance procedure as such. Besides, it is not required to carry out this procedure if there isn't a fuel imbalance advisory.
I had this advisory once. The captain decided not to carry out the procedure before the advisory came for that note in the procedure even though we had detected quite an important umbalance. After an hour, we had a permanent bank angle and some sideslip. Then the advisory was triggered.
So it is left to the pilot to decide on wether to open the xfeed valve or keep it shut.
Therefore, in the double tank low fuel caution we should shut off the XFEED unless the MONITORing of the fuel umbalance suggests opening it before an engine flames out. In case of a previous eng fail, I guess the sensible thing to do is open the valve.
The IMBALANCE......MONITOR ecam action in the SHUT DOWN procedure is quite ambiguous.
It is just a monitor advice, not a prompt to carry out the inmbalance procedure as such. Besides, it is not required to carry out this procedure if there isn't a fuel imbalance advisory.
I had this advisory once. The captain decided not to carry out the procedure before the advisory came for that note in the procedure even though we had detected quite an important umbalance. After an hour, we had a permanent bank angle and some sideslip. Then the advisory was triggered.
So it is left to the pilot to decide on wether to open the xfeed valve or keep it shut.
Therefore, in the double tank low fuel caution we should shut off the XFEED unless the MONITORing of the fuel umbalance suggests opening it before an engine flames out. In case of a previous eng fail, I guess the sensible thing to do is open the valve.
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I believe it a matter of "We think you may have screwed up so initially - Turn X-Feed OFF". ie "You have low level light because you have a leak that you did not recognize". Once you have isolated left / right fuel and confirmed that no fuel leak exists THEN you can consider turning X-Feed ON.
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KISS
Three days to discuss what to do with one switch with only 30 minutes fuel remaining 
You know you are short of fuel , and are at some point in descent or approach. Consider OEI and L+R TK LO LVL in the two possible combinations.
ONE: L+R TK LO LVL caution appears. ECAM actions completed. Then an engine fails. Run ECAM and at FUEL IMBALANCE ... MONITOR you check for leaks and turn X-FEED to ON if no leak. All the fuel is available to the live engine.
TWO: OEI, ECAM actions complete. Because of the fuel imbalance the X-FEED is ON and two wing tank pumps are OFF in the low tank. L+R TK LO LVL caution appears, you run ECAM...
ALL TK PUMPS ... ON (sensible)
FUEL X FEED ... OFF !! Not sensible so you leave it ON, because the procedure is written for a serviceable aeroplane and you apply common sense.
All the fuel is available to the live engine.
Your priority is to land the a/c before you run out of fuel!!!
rudderrudderrat
Apologies if I sound like 411A but... Still confused? Volunteer for extra training or hand your licence in.
They are completely separate procedures based on an otherwise serviceable a/c. This applies to all manufacturers. Air Transat 330 crew followed (old) ECAM without monitoring fuel imbalance. The current procedure is safer.
ISTR that eg B747 fuel x-feed was opened with low fuel state to cope with pumps being uncovered on a go-around? This may not apply to A320? And if you do run out of fuel would you like simultaneous flame-outs or have them (say) two minutes apart?
You know you are short of fuel , and are at some point in descent or approach. Consider OEI and L+R TK LO LVL in the two possible combinations.
ONE: L+R TK LO LVL caution appears. ECAM actions completed. Then an engine fails. Run ECAM and at FUEL IMBALANCE ... MONITOR you check for leaks and turn X-FEED to ON if no leak. All the fuel is available to the live engine.
TWO: OEI, ECAM actions complete. Because of the fuel imbalance the X-FEED is ON and two wing tank pumps are OFF in the low tank. L+R TK LO LVL caution appears, you run ECAM...
ALL TK PUMPS ... ON (sensible)
FUEL X FEED ... OFF !! Not sensible so you leave it ON, because the procedure is written for a serviceable aeroplane and you apply common sense.
All the fuel is available to the live engine.
Your priority is to land the a/c before you run out of fuel!!!
rudderrudderrat
Apologies if I sound like 411A but... Still confused? Volunteer for extra training or hand your licence in.
It appears that the change in the ECAM from "Open X Feed" to "Monitor Fuel Imbalance" has been tripped up by an error in L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl ECAM procedure.
I think the error is the Fuel X Feed should be selected On (Open) not Off (Closed).
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Thanks MB2002 and Capt Prop for your logical views.
TyroPicard - I don't intend to run out of fuel - but to land with more than 30 mins useable fuel with both engines running, or more than 15 mins useable fuel with one engine out.
It would be good to have a logical Low Fuel Contents ECAM procedure which satisfies both.
TyroPicard - I don't intend to run out of fuel - but to land with more than 30 mins useable fuel with both engines running, or more than 15 mins useable fuel with one engine out.
It would be good to have a logical Low Fuel Contents ECAM procedure which satisfies both.
Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 7th Nov 2009 at 19:27.
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Hi,
I just found this link from Airbus :
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...nimum_Fuel.pdf
So when FUEL L+R Wing Tank Lo Lvl is triggered - why does the A330 request Wing X Feed On (Open), the A340 request X Feed 1,2,3,4 On - but the A320 request Fuel X Feed Off (Closed)?
I'm still hoping someone can enlighten me.
I just found this link from Airbus :
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...nimum_Fuel.pdf
So when FUEL L+R Wing Tank Lo Lvl is triggered - why does the A330 request Wing X Feed On (Open), the A340 request X Feed 1,2,3,4 On - but the A320 request Fuel X Feed Off (Closed)?
I'm still hoping someone can enlighten me.
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rudderrat
Pages 16 and 17 of that .pdf link show technical differences between A320 and LR types - I don't know enough to say if that is the reason for the difference in X-FEED management.
Regarding
you are discussing L+R TK LO LVL, this warning occurs with 30 minutes of fuel remaining.
Pages 16 and 17 of that .pdf link show technical differences between A320 and LR types - I don't know enough to say if that is the reason for the difference in X-FEED management.
Regarding
TyroPicard - I don't intend to run out of fuel - but to land with more than 30 mins useable fuel with both engines running,
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Hi TP,
According to the presentation that's an approximate figure. Depending on the aircraft variant and landing weight - our 30 mins reserves are typically about 1 Ton. Many of our fuel flight plans predict landing with about 1500 kgs - hence my original concern at the start of this thread.
Presumably we have to consider an engine failure at the worst point on the intended flight? For our short haul operations - our fuel management problem is a point on the final approach if the crew elect to fly a Go Around.
you are discussing L+R TK LO LVL, this warning occurs with 30 minutes of fuel remaining.
Presumably we have to consider an engine failure at the worst point on the intended flight? For our short haul operations - our fuel management problem is a point on the final approach if the crew elect to fly a Go Around.
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In this context it is important to understand AIRBUS' approach with regard to certifying operation with low fuel levels.
They say that according to flight planning requirements you arrive your destination with minimum diversion fuel, go around, divert to alternate and arrive there with only final reserve fuel remaing, i.e. an endurance of 30 minutes which translates into roughly 1.0 - 1.2 tons on the A319/A320.
A go-around at the alternate is not taken into account from a fuel-management point-of-view although 1000 kg FOB would enable you to go around, fly a short radar vectored pattern and land with at least 400 kg remaining.
AIRBUS says Final Reserve Fuel is only for Holding and now take your seats: If you go around or otherwise exceed +10° of Pitch you might flame out any one or even both engines.
As mentioned above, as going around at the alternate is not figurde into minimum fuel requirements, there's nothing in the books with regard to this, remember 'it's the best aeroplane in the world'.
The only small hint is in System Limitations / Fuel, as the min. FOB for takeoff is 1.500 kg or just the warning Threshold for L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl. Nice try, uh ??!
Back on Topic:
It's a certification requirement that for Take-Off and Landing both engines may NOT be feeded from the same tank as it might be the case with Fuel X-Feed open depending on the outlet pressure of the fuel pumps. That's in my opinion the reason for NOT opening X-Feed with both wing tanks low level.
BRGDS, Max
They say that according to flight planning requirements you arrive your destination with minimum diversion fuel, go around, divert to alternate and arrive there with only final reserve fuel remaing, i.e. an endurance of 30 minutes which translates into roughly 1.0 - 1.2 tons on the A319/A320.
A go-around at the alternate is not taken into account from a fuel-management point-of-view although 1000 kg FOB would enable you to go around, fly a short radar vectored pattern and land with at least 400 kg remaining.
AIRBUS says Final Reserve Fuel is only for Holding and now take your seats: If you go around or otherwise exceed +10° of Pitch you might flame out any one or even both engines.
As mentioned above, as going around at the alternate is not figurde into minimum fuel requirements, there's nothing in the books with regard to this, remember 'it's the best aeroplane in the world'.
The only small hint is in System Limitations / Fuel, as the min. FOB for takeoff is 1.500 kg or just the warning Threshold for L+R Wing Tk Lo Lvl. Nice try, uh ??!
Back on Topic:
It's a certification requirement that for Take-Off and Landing both engines may NOT be feeded from the same tank as it might be the case with Fuel X-Feed open depending on the outlet pressure of the fuel pumps. That's in my opinion the reason for NOT opening X-Feed with both wing tanks low level.
BRGDS, Max
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Hi Max, This is from the link I've posted above in this thread. Page 17. The aircraft would never have been certified otherwise.
A318/A319/A320/A321
The pumps located in the collector cell pick up fuel directly from the bottom of the pump canister.
The pumps located in the collector cell pick up fuel directly from the bottom of the pump canister.
FUEL L + R WING (INR) TK LO
A330/A340
The pumps located in the collector cell pick up fuel directly from the bottom of the pump canister. Jet pumps and clack valves ensure that the collector cells are maintained full.
NO RESTRICTION IN G LOAD
NO RESTRICTION IN PITCH
A330/A340
The pumps located in the collector cell pick up fuel directly from the bottom of the pump canister. Jet pumps and clack valves ensure that the collector cells are maintained full.
NO RESTRICTION IN G LOAD
NO RESTRICTION IN PITCH