Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Reasons to scream 'Mayday' out the mic

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Reasons to scream 'Mayday' out the mic

Old 16th Aug 2009, 00:18
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: N 06/W 75
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Reasons to scream 'Mayday' out the mic

I know...I know, may sound obvious, but I'm interested to know which other causes maybe considered as 'emergency'. Here goes a few (the most obvious, I think):

- Loss of 50% of thrust (read as engine-out)
- Loss of all but one electric power generator (I believe Batteries are not included as an electric power generator)
- Partial or complete loss of any of the primary flight controls
- One of the on board people's life is at danger (medical issues)
- Hijacking (Duh!)
- Physical damage of the aircraft structure
- Loss of (any?) flight instruments when on IMC
- Shortage of fuel. I don't know a "time figure" that describes "shortage", though. A ball park figure for me would be running on the last 30 mins of fuel, but I'd guess there's a number that states "emergency".

Well, that's all of I can think of right now. I hope to get some interesting answers as is usual on this site.

Thanks!
Ocampo is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 00:54
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
....scream 'Mayday' ...
Hmmm, screaming....must be something new from the 'CRM' department
411A is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 02:02
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Move this to Jetblast and it will get a lot more developmental answers
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 02:06
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BALI
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would declare a pan pan for a couple on that list.
GA715 is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 02:36
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: N 06/W 75
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hmmm, screaming....must be something new from the 'CRM' department
HAHAHAHA!

Inside your head you may wanna scream...Well...you get the point

I would declare a pan pan for a couple on that list.
May I ask which ones?

Thanks
Ocampo is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 03:07
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is really what you need to know.
States of Emergency

The states of emergency are classified as follows:

a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.

b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.

The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
a) Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN.
You can digest Annex 10 volume 2 of the Chicago convention, and all of the ICAO member national variances to your hearts content. A few people get their knickers in a knot over the subtleties and nuances of each and every aspect. In reality and in practice, it becomes a judgment call for the pilot in command on the day, or it is obvious in accordance with company procedures in the event. One thing that some people need to appreciate is that you are not going to be put on trial, charged, or suffer a fine or penalty because of the honest judgment you make in this respect at the time. You can upgrade or downgrade your initial assessment at any time. The same event may elicit a different response in two different people.

The point of the call or the prefix, is that you are communicating an emergency to somebody else on the radio. Normally this will be to ATC. Sometimes it might be to another aircraft. On occaissions it may be to any unknown station that is monitoring, and has the ability to relay your message and request for assistance.

The initial point is that you are communicating on the radio, so the first thing you do not do is "scream!" That would certainly distort your message, and delay the imperative in what you are seeking to achieve. The second point is that you are the one with the emergency, or the emergency message to convey. It is therefore your assessment that matters, and it is up to you which prefix you feel is appropriate in your given set of circumstances. The person receiving the message will only act on the information you transmit. Whatever protocols they then initiate will be based on your given prefix and assessment.

As an example, imagine an inexperienced private pilot or student pilot becomes uncertain of his position. After trying to orientate himself he realizes he is lost. He knows there is a large international airport in the general vicinity, because his instructor once showed him how to call up for a transit. So he calls up for radar assistance. The controller who is busy with a string of airliners in train, and even more about to be handed over to him, advises that he is too busy to assist at this time. The pilot then prefixes his request with PAN PAN PAN. Now this gets the controllers attention on an entirely different level. The urgency of the call will result in whatever resources are required to provide the now obvious assistance that is required. The pilot who acted in a timely manner also is able to resolve his difficulty before his problem becomes a potential crisis, such as running low on fuel when inevitably a mayday call would be required. On the other hand if the weather was worsening, or the pilot felt that other factors were loading his ability, or he was concerned about fuel, then the initial call made might well be a mayday. There are so many variables that it is impossible to define what is the "proper" or correct prefix in every circumstance.

To take a few of your examples:
Loss of 50% of thrust (read as engine-out)
I think in most cases it would be entirely appropriate to use a mayday prefix. certainly if there was a fire. There are also issues of significant performance loss and workload that warrant as assesment of significant or imminent danger that would be helped by ATC giving you the priority that this situation might warrant. Once the situation had been regularised and the workload reduced some might choose to downgrade the emergency to a PAN. Some might not.
Loss of all but one electric power generator (I believe Batteries are not included as an electric power generator)
This might be time and location dependent. In a situation where a diversion to a nearby airfield was required with one functioning generator and up to 30 minutes of battery backup there is no particular imminent danger. It is possible other factors on a given day, or at a particular location might cause a crew to think otherwise though?
One of the on board people's life is at danger (medical issues)
Again it depends on the circumstances. Certainly if it was necessary to descend and land at a nearby airfield in busy airspace then a Mayday call should normally get the seas to part for you. On the other hand if the person was receiving treatment or medical attention on board, or a better planned arrival made the need for assistance less time critical in your judgment then a PAN call might be more appropriate. The level of emergency can always be changed as necessary.
Partial or complete loss of any of the primary flight controls
A complete loss of a primary control would almost certainly constitute a situation of serious or imminent danger. A partial loss would depend on the circumstances. Again a judgment call on the day.
Hijacking (Duh!)
Indeed.
Physical damage of the aircraft structure
Well this could be anything from bird strike dent, to a lightning strike, to a broken window, to a panel falling off, to a hydraulic system leak, to an upset, to a collision! It depends on the circumstances on the day. Call it as you see fit, if at all.
Loss of (any?) flight instruments when on IMC
This depends on what, where, who, how. Loss of particular instruments may be of significant importance to a single pilot in a small aircraft. Some instruments of more importance than others. On the other hand in a Boeing 757 with triple backup systems and two pilots, the loss of one or more instruments may warrant little more than a tech log entry, and be nothing to concern anybody else or constitute any sort of emergency.
Shortage of fuel. I don't know a "time figure" that describes "shortage", though. A ball park figure for me would be running on the last 30 mins of fuel, but I'd guess there's a number that states "emergency".
Notwithstanding the initial example I provided, there clearly is a default imperitive for running low on fuel reserves. For airline operations these may well differ, but expecting to reach final reserve fuel (30 mins) before reaching your diversion alternate, would normally warrant ATC's attention with a PAN, and actually reaching the last 30 minutes of fuel, a MAYDAY.

The point I am trying to convey, is that apart from the painfully obvious, the call prefix you use, is based on your judgement at that point in time. It is not based on anybody elses, nor is it open to debate in any way that actually matters. An emergency will be a stressful and busy time for the pilot or crew, and communicating that emergency will help enable other people to properly assist, get other traffic safely out of your way, and hopefully make your resolution of that task easier and more effective. As with anything dynamic, things can change for the better or worse, and time will often allow for more accurate assessments. It is quite acceptable to change, upgrade, downgrade or cancel the emergency status as you as the reporter see fit.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 04:23
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: N 06/W 75
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bealzebub

Thank you very much for your complete reply. Point taken

Somehow I understood somewhere else that you gave specific calls (Mayday or Pan Pan) depending on certain specific circumstances.

BTW, the "scream" thing was a joke, I was teached that the best way to deal with your emergencies was with your head cold, calm, and being always objective.
Ocampo is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 07:26
  #8 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There are certain countries (some in Mainland Europe) where it is said that 'Panne' is not understood(). I would suggest that preference (where there is doubt) would be for 'M'aidez' to focus attention and then downgrade if appropriate as Bea says. All spoken in a calm, measured, 'BBC' type voice, of course.
BOAC is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 11:18
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In front of the computer
Age: 53
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On a lighter note i know the term "mayday" is derived from the french "m'aidez" meaning "help me", so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........
Riccardo is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 11:59
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
50% loss of power.... I've had a few of those as a controller and heard neither Mayday nor PAN calls associated with them. Once during fog an A310 made two go-arounds at Heathrow. On the third he said he had lost an engine and wished to divert to Manchester, which he did. He did not sound in the least bit perturbed!

I've also had a couple of cases of loss of 50% of crew - Captain or F/O incapacitated. Far from screaming into the mic, one F/O simply said: "Be gentle with me, I'm all alone as the Captain has been taken ill".
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 12:12
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Screaming is no good.
Except in the movies. Movie pilots look like complete idiots and they scream a lot.
Did Captain Sully scream?
No!
If I was in his situation, well...
I would try to appear calm. There is people who just flies the airplane and is so calm! "We have lost thrust in both engines" and "We may end up in the Hudson". It explains it all.
Just that, calm as if he had said "Oh, how inconvenient! I will get wet and it is very cold. We'll I get a flu?"
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 12:58
  #12 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Riccardo
so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........
- you could always look at post #8
BOAC is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2009, 14:11
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gla
Age: 76
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
so where does "Pan" come from - surely you wouldn't shout "bread, bread, bread" down the mic........
Pan-pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Says it all really.
draughtsman99 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 01:33
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mayday is an emergency call that should only be used in a dire emergency. In the US just declaring an emergency does the same thing but internationally that is the proper phraseology for some reason. Say mayday if it makes you feel good but it really doesn't matter an iota from just saying you are on fire and returning or you have an emergency. Both accomplish the same thing.
p51guy is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 01:41
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For instance a pilot friend flying an airliner had to return to land overweight and his interpetation of our ops manual was you had to declare an emergency. Yelling mayday for that would make him sound pretty stupid.
p51guy is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 02:21
  #16 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: various places .....
Posts: 7,178
Received 92 Likes on 61 Posts
Not expressing a personal view one way or the other.

However, the use of "Mayday", in particular, accords with International Convention and provides some basis in law, I would imagine, for a demand on subsequent ground action/assistance.
john_tullamarine is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 09:43
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,823
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Issuing an *immediate* distress call would depend on whether anyone can actually help you there and then, I'd have thought. If there's spare capacity, fine, but if the pilot(s) are working 110% to keep the aircraft from doing something terminal then waiting for a reduction in the workload might be prudent. Even with things such as emergency descents and Atlantic turnbacks, the priority is aircraft control, followed by communication.

I've been witness to some extremely pedantic discussions over the use of PAN over MAYDAY and vice-versa. At the end of the day, who gives a **** as you can always change your mind about your status later. Unless I was operating in central Europe, I'd use the M-words every time as the other option is often not understood and/or leads to an extended conversation.

I agree that in English speaking countries, yelling "Help! Help! We're on fire!" or whatever would have the desired effect but in places where the mother tongue is radically different, this may lead to a large question mark (or whatever punctuation they use) appearing over the head of whoever you're speaking to and possibly no action taken.
FullWings is online now  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 14:17
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Also, everybody will listen to a Mayday and will not interrupt the ATC when they start helping. That is why I think it is better to say it (or pan pan if it suits better).
If you just state that you have an emergency in plain language some pilots in the frequency could miss that and make untimely calls.
Anyhow, a crew in distress will do what they have to do, then let know the ATC what they are doing and what are their short term intentions. And this, only after they have controlled the flight path and speed.
Then they can isolate the problem, make a decision and finally contact ATC again and state what are their further intentions and say what they need from the ATC.
It can be very helpful to sqwak emergency if you don't have time to speak with the ATC because they will take care of separating traffics on your way. If you don't know what to say, sqwak 7700.
Although now you have TCAS if they are not aware of the problem and you are deviating from the flight plan and or level. But don't forget to put it at TA ONLY if you are unable to climb.
But this is another thread: when to sqwak 7700?
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 14:25
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Formerly of Nam
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Try this Micro

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...wk-7700-a.html
Slasher is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2009, 19:51
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Manhattan
Age: 58
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
well, there are pro's and con's for everything - but I would certainly assume that you (if you have to) scream Mayday into the mic and not out of it.

HB
Harry Burns is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.