No pilot?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No pilot?
I admit this is a bit of a weird question, but it's just something I thought I should find out. Honestly, I don't really know much about aviation but I am interested in it nonetheless.
Okay... so on a commercial airline plane which is cruising mid-flight to its destination, what would happen if the pilot (and everybody else on board) were to suddenly disappear or just stop controlling the plane? If it was on auto-pilot would it just continue to fly? Where to? Can auto-pilot even land a plane? How about if it wasn't on auto-pilot? Would safety systems kick in and turn it on? Is there any circumstance in which the plane would crash because of this?
Thanks in advance for reading/answering. xD
Okay... so on a commercial airline plane which is cruising mid-flight to its destination, what would happen if the pilot (and everybody else on board) were to suddenly disappear or just stop controlling the plane? If it was on auto-pilot would it just continue to fly? Where to? Can auto-pilot even land a plane? How about if it wasn't on auto-pilot? Would safety systems kick in and turn it on? Is there any circumstance in which the plane would crash because of this?
Thanks in advance for reading/answering. xD
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One wonders when commercial flights will be conducted remotely in the same way as Unmanned Aerial Vehicles?
Last edited by gengis; 2nd Aug 2009 at 19:42.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UAV mishap rate is staggering -- about half the UAVs produced for the US military have already crashed.
Then again, I could have been lied to.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There would be a possibility of a fully automatic landing: Shortly before dying, pilots would need to
- perfectly program the FMS/FMGC
- Arm Land/ILS
- Lower gear (or not, then it would be a crash landing)
- select autobrake (or not, then it would roll over the runway end)
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NamibFox - It ain't gonna happen!!! Apart from the technical aspect as described by Gengis, above, there is the security aspect. The prospect of ground control falling into the wrong hands does not bear thinking about, be it taken over military style or taken over using more powerful ground control systems.
(By the time all the system redundancy equipment is loaded on you may as well have pilots, they eat more, weigh less and cost less!).
(By the time all the system redundancy equipment is loaded on you may as well have pilots, they eat more, weigh less and cost less!).
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LONDON
Age: 51
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those that know of the TV Program "Top Gear" clarkson asked the very question to the audience as to who would get on a fully automated plane with no pilot on board - nobody would (this was during a discussion on fully automated cars).
I think the technical challenges could be overcome with the technology we already have - as Gengis points out communications redundency would be required but even without comms there could be a "safer" revert programmed. We have drones already in the military after all...
The bigger issue I think would be who would actually willingly get onto such an aircraft knowing that there is no pilot on board - it would take a complete re-education of the populous into placing our trust in such a aircraft as we like the console ourselves in the comfort that the guys up the front dont want to crash either (no matter how safer automation may be statistically).
Back to the original thread point - IIRC research was comissioned into introducing remote control/landing capabilities on airliners - not due to the Helios incident but after 9/11 to be able to take over control in Hi-jack situations. I am not sure if anything ever came of that but I recall reading somewhere they were exploring the possibilities.
I think the technical challenges could be overcome with the technology we already have - as Gengis points out communications redundency would be required but even without comms there could be a "safer" revert programmed. We have drones already in the military after all...
The bigger issue I think would be who would actually willingly get onto such an aircraft knowing that there is no pilot on board - it would take a complete re-education of the populous into placing our trust in such a aircraft as we like the console ourselves in the comfort that the guys up the front dont want to crash either (no matter how safer automation may be statistically).
Back to the original thread point - IIRC research was comissioned into introducing remote control/landing capabilities on airliners - not due to the Helios incident but after 9/11 to be able to take over control in Hi-jack situations. I am not sure if anything ever came of that but I recall reading somewhere they were exploring the possibilities.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously the technology for unmanned airplanes is available, as demonstrated by military UAV operations. But it's ok only as long as everything works.
The problem is when something breaks: Computer snafu, engine failure, hydraulic leak, . . . For that reason it's questionable if any passenger would trust the automatics and get aboard.
The problem is when something breaks: Computer snafu, engine failure, hydraulic leak, . . . For that reason it's questionable if any passenger would trust the automatics and get aboard.
Registered User **
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Age: 49
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Minus a few inputs such as flight spoiler, flap/slat setting, gear control, autobrake selection and thrust reverser deployment today's aircraft land in automation. Taxying to the desired gate is also a human function.
Recently we have created a system known as FANS "future air navigation system". FANS is sold as a system to text high altitude reporting commands to avoid mis-communication over forign land, this system could simply be modified to control an aircraft in flight via FMS commands to Flight Control Systems.
The simple imputs listed above would be easy to automate, the only limitations are FAA/JAR, etc. restrictions to pilotless commercial aircraft, the military operates "drones" as we speak, the only limitation we have to a commercial aircraft operating without a PIC is the liability and blame of loss of life as a result of a crash and loss of life.
Recently we have created a system known as FANS "future air navigation system". FANS is sold as a system to text high altitude reporting commands to avoid mis-communication over forign land, this system could simply be modified to control an aircraft in flight via FMS commands to Flight Control Systems.
The simple imputs listed above would be easy to automate, the only limitations are FAA/JAR, etc. restrictions to pilotless commercial aircraft, the military operates "drones" as we speak, the only limitation we have to a commercial aircraft operating without a PIC is the liability and blame of loss of life as a result of a crash and loss of life.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gone to my "Happy Place".
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the pilot (and everybody else on board) were to suddenly disappear
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, a F8 Crusader managed it whan the stude banged out on take off and the thing promptly landed itself and trapped the wires at the far threshold, (from the book "MiG Master", I think.)
So it can happen.
So it can happen.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 3rd Aug 2009 at 09:59.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pilotless commercial aviation won't happen
It's got nothing to do with thh technology, nor security.
Why would it happen anyway? One reason only - to save costs. But the development and certification cost would be ten times bigger than huge. In any case, the aircraft would be 'piloted', but by somebody on the ground. So you might be saving hotel bills, but not salaries.
And anyway, who would choose to fly in a pilotless airliner anyway, when presumably there would be plenty of traditionally-piloted alternatives? Would you have confidence in a Michael O'Leary of the future announcing that - in order to give you the cheapest fare possible - he was doing away with the ultimate 'frill'?
Why would it happen anyway? One reason only - to save costs. But the development and certification cost would be ten times bigger than huge. In any case, the aircraft would be 'piloted', but by somebody on the ground. So you might be saving hotel bills, but not salaries.
And anyway, who would choose to fly in a pilotless airliner anyway, when presumably there would be plenty of traditionally-piloted alternatives? Would you have confidence in a Michael O'Leary of the future announcing that - in order to give you the cheapest fare possible - he was doing away with the ultimate 'frill'?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Commercial UAV
I certainly would not get into a pilotless plane as the technology stands. I agree that the current cost of certification would be enormous. Still, if one had mentioned the possibility of Cat III C landing systems to pilots before the second world war, they might have said that automatic landings would not happen either!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There would be a possibility of a fully automatic landing: Shortly before dying, pilots would need to
- perfectly program the FMS/FMGC
- Arm Land/ILS
- Lower gear (or not, then it would be a crash landing)
- select autobrake (or not, then it would roll over the runway end)
ad 1) now that can be done
ad2) arming the ILS (I assume you mean arming approach mode) gives authority to the nav recievers - any beam of the preselected freq would cause the aircraft to turn or go up/down. Don't ever try it in real life. One of my instructors on the A320 did it, thinking the plane would fly FMS to destination and the intercept the ILS by itself - well, he told me he was barely able to save the plane from going into a high speed stall when the thing recieved something at high level.
ad 3) I truely don't know what would happen if you lowered the gear at FL 350 doing M .80 - the doors will be gone, for sure! Then the transsonic aerodynamics - I'd say it will be interessting!
ad 4) You will overrun depending on design of the autobrake - all the ones I know will switch off at slow speeds when antiskid becomes unavailable (around 20kts)...
Dream on boy-
No pilots = certain death!
Nic