AF447
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It seems that a riot is starting with AF (true) professional pilots:
PETITION POUR UN VERITABLE AUDIT EXTERNE (auditexterneaf)
PETITION POUR UN VERITABLE AUDIT EXTERNE (auditexterneaf)
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This from AirWise today.
A US lawyer filed suit against Airbus and many aerospace suppliers on Monday seeking unspecified compensation on behalf of relatives of eight of the 228 passengers who died when an Air France flight crashed off the coast of Brazil in June.
Details: Airbus, Others Sued In US Over Crash Off Brazil
Details: Airbus, Others Sued In US Over Crash Off Brazil
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Why am I not surprised. This from AirWise today.
More at:
Air France Crash Report Due In December
Don't hold your breath.
"Our current knowledge of the accident does not allow us to put together a scenario," -- Jean-Paul Troadec, BEA.
Air France Crash Report Due In December
Don't hold your breath.
France to Renew Search for Plane’s Data Recorders
By NICOLA CLARK
Published: October 26, 2009
PARIS — France is preparing to spend as much as €20 million next year on a renewed search for the flight data recorders and undersea wreckage of the Air France A330 jetliner that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June, killing all 228 people aboard, the new head of the French agency charged with investigating the accident said Monday.
The news comes amid mounting tension within Air France as the airline prepares for an external audit of its flight safety procedures next month.
The agency, the Bureau of Investigations and Analyses, has begun preparing for a third attempt to locate the black boxes of Air France Flight 447 that it expects will begin early next year, with the support of experts and specialized equipment from the United States, Britain, Brazil and Russia, said Jean-Paul Troadec, who took over as head of the agency this month.
The agency, which has already spent roughly €10 million, or $15 million, scouring the ocean floor for clues to what caused the accident, plans to spend an additional €10 million to €20 million for the next phase of the search, Mr. Troadec said.
Air France Flight 447 left Rio de Janeiro and was en route to Paris when it went down on June 1 during strong thunderstorms in an area about 960 kilometers, or 600 miles, off northern Brazil. Search teams recovered over 600 pieces of debris from the ocean, representing about 5 percent of the airframe, investigators have said. The bulk of the wreckage has not been found and is presumed to be lying on the mountainous seabed, deep below the ocean surface.
Investigators have yet to pinpoint the cause of the disaster, although they suspect that a malfunction of the aircraft’s speed sensors may have contributed to the crash. A preliminary report published in July said an examination of the floating debris indicated that the plane had hit the water intact.
“We still don’t know what happened in the cockpit, and we will need to find and analyze the recorders to understand,” Mr. Troadec said at the agency’s offices in Le Bourget, near Paris. “Our knowledge of this accident does not allow us to develop a scenario.”
But he did say that autopsy reports recently received from Brazilian medical examiners appeared to confirm that the crash victims died “on impact with the water.”
In December, the agency plans to publish a second intermediate report that will include detailed analysis of the evidence gathered so far as well as some recommendations about how to improve the storage and transmission of flight data to aid future crash investigations, Mr. Troadec said.
Investigators in July abandoned an audio search for the flight recorders’ “pingers,” which are designed to emit a signal for 30 to 40 days. A second phase of the hunt, using diving equipment and sonar scanners towed by a French frigate, ended in September without success. Mr. Troadec there had been no further search activity.
By NICOLA CLARK
Published: October 26, 2009
PARIS — France is preparing to spend as much as €20 million next year on a renewed search for the flight data recorders and undersea wreckage of the Air France A330 jetliner that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June, killing all 228 people aboard, the new head of the French agency charged with investigating the accident said Monday.
The news comes amid mounting tension within Air France as the airline prepares for an external audit of its flight safety procedures next month.
The agency, the Bureau of Investigations and Analyses, has begun preparing for a third attempt to locate the black boxes of Air France Flight 447 that it expects will begin early next year, with the support of experts and specialized equipment from the United States, Britain, Brazil and Russia, said Jean-Paul Troadec, who took over as head of the agency this month.
The agency, which has already spent roughly €10 million, or $15 million, scouring the ocean floor for clues to what caused the accident, plans to spend an additional €10 million to €20 million for the next phase of the search, Mr. Troadec said.
Air France Flight 447 left Rio de Janeiro and was en route to Paris when it went down on June 1 during strong thunderstorms in an area about 960 kilometers, or 600 miles, off northern Brazil. Search teams recovered over 600 pieces of debris from the ocean, representing about 5 percent of the airframe, investigators have said. The bulk of the wreckage has not been found and is presumed to be lying on the mountainous seabed, deep below the ocean surface.
Investigators have yet to pinpoint the cause of the disaster, although they suspect that a malfunction of the aircraft’s speed sensors may have contributed to the crash. A preliminary report published in July said an examination of the floating debris indicated that the plane had hit the water intact.
“We still don’t know what happened in the cockpit, and we will need to find and analyze the recorders to understand,” Mr. Troadec said at the agency’s offices in Le Bourget, near Paris. “Our knowledge of this accident does not allow us to develop a scenario.”
But he did say that autopsy reports recently received from Brazilian medical examiners appeared to confirm that the crash victims died “on impact with the water.”
In December, the agency plans to publish a second intermediate report that will include detailed analysis of the evidence gathered so far as well as some recommendations about how to improve the storage and transmission of flight data to aid future crash investigations, Mr. Troadec said.
Investigators in July abandoned an audio search for the flight recorders’ “pingers,” which are designed to emit a signal for 30 to 40 days. A second phase of the hunt, using diving equipment and sonar scanners towed by a French frigate, ended in September without success. Mr. Troadec there had been no further search activity.
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Huh - I wonder what they plan on doing to find it - now that there is absolutely no chance on earth that the pinger still operates... Are they going to sonar scan the entire ocean floor and just look for a rectangular 14*13*32cm box? Beats me 
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France to Renew Search for Plane’s Data Recorders
Thanks PJ2 for posting that update report. I hope that the third search will last longer than the previous ones. Unless the fuselage disintegrated into small pieces upon impact, I would think that they must find more of the missing 95% which lies at the bottom of the ocean, especially the tail. Has nobody attempted to do computer simulations at BEA? Is that not possible in this day and age of high tech? How about NASA?
Huh - I wonder what they plan on doing to find it - now that there is absolutely no chance on earth that the pinger still operates... Are they going to sonar scan the entire ocean floor and just look for a rectangular 14*13*32cm box? Beats me
Even with some of the big stuff an awful lot can be discerned from photos on the seabed so at least it's progress.
patience
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Stbyrud
It was either Air India, or SAA 'Helderberg' (feel free to correct me anyone) boxes, I think, that was pulled from deep (though not remotely as mountainous) water after about a year's search.
So yes, it may be possible if the will is there
So yes, it may be possible if the will is there
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Stbyrud - 1987 a Boeing 747 Helderberg search
In Johan Strümpfer's DEEP OCEAN SEARCH PLANNING - the search for the Boeing 747 of South African Airways Flight 295, he reported that ocean depth was in places over 5 km deep and very mountainous. The wreckage was located at a depth of 4.4 kilometres.
Three debris fields were found: 19°10'30?S 59°38'0?E? / ?19.175°S 59.633333°E? / -19.175; 59.633333? (SA Helderberg Debris Site1).
19°9'53?S 59°38'32?E? / ?19.16472°S 59.64222°E? / -19.16472; 59.64222? (SA Helderberg Debris Site2)
and 19°9'15?S 59°37'25?E? / ?19.15417°S 59.62361°E? / -19.15417; 59.62361? (SA Helderberg Debris Site3).
These locations are 1.5, 2.3 and 2.5 km apart, which indicates that the aircraft broke up before crashing into the Ocean. The extent of the wreckage field was attributed to dispersion of the wreckage during the estimated 80 or more minutes the wreckage took to sink. The aircraft wreckage was found some two months after the accident during the sonar search phase. A further photographic survey and recorder search phase was conducted one year later, at which time the CVR was located.
Three debris fields were found: 19°10'30?S 59°38'0?E? / ?19.175°S 59.633333°E? / -19.175; 59.633333? (SA Helderberg Debris Site1).
19°9'53?S 59°38'32?E? / ?19.16472°S 59.64222°E? / -19.16472; 59.64222? (SA Helderberg Debris Site2)
and 19°9'15?S 59°37'25?E? / ?19.15417°S 59.62361°E? / -19.15417; 59.62361? (SA Helderberg Debris Site3).
These locations are 1.5, 2.3 and 2.5 km apart, which indicates that the aircraft broke up before crashing into the Ocean. The extent of the wreckage field was attributed to dispersion of the wreckage during the estimated 80 or more minutes the wreckage took to sink. The aircraft wreckage was found some two months after the accident during the sonar search phase. A further photographic survey and recorder search phase was conducted one year later, at which time the CVR was located.
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Then perhaps the French should be talking to whomever it was that undertook the search for wreckage of Flt 295 ie, what equipment did they use, the methodology used, etc. I can't imagine it would hurt asking someone who has successfully undertaken such an endeavor, and succeeded.
Rotate on this!
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"Then perhaps the French should be talking to whomever it was that undertook the search for wreckage of Flt 295 ie, what equipment did they use, the methodology used, etc. I can't imagine it would hurt asking someone who has successfully undertaken such an endeavor, and succeeded."
The team undertaking the search is not the same group as the Flt 295.
The team undertaking the search is not the same group as the Flt 295.
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There are meetings currently ongoing regarding the search methodology, technology & timescales etc however I can assure you there is a deep tow sonar system capable of locating very small objects at depths down to 6000m, this search will require no more than 4000m.
Again at this stage I cant say any more but rest assured a new phase of the search using appropriate technology is currently being worked on.
Again at this stage I cant say any more but rest assured a new phase of the search using appropriate technology is currently being worked on.
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Again at this stage I cant say any more but rest assured a new phase of the search using appropriate technology is currently being worked on.
Has anything official (other than ABC) been issued relative to the medical exams of the victums? The news indicated some may have been alive after the accident.
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wes wall, IIRC, one of the countries now involved was not involved in the first two searches. And I rather suspect the side-scan sonar being used this time was not available previously, and its deployment and use required approval at a fairly high government level.
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@SLFguy,
Yes, I know the team searching for AF447 is not the same as that which recovered flt 295. That's why I wrote that the former should be talking to the latter.
Yes, I know the team searching for AF447 is not the same as that which recovered flt 295. That's why I wrote that the former should be talking to the latter.
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SaturnV remarked
Unless I miss my guess the depth was considerably less and the terrain considerably smoother where AI182 went down near 51N 15W. That makes location a whole lot easier. I seem to remember reading here that the pinger receivers used were limited to something above the tops of the underwater mountains. The debris is probably down in a canyon somewhere and will be hard to find.
The numbers for depth of pinger receiver, its expected range, and the depth of the mountainous ocean floor where AF447 went down left me wondering, "Why bother except to put on a good show?"
JD-EE
On AI182, they located the pingers within two weeks of the accident. The pingers led to recovery of both boxes, and both boxes were ashore within three weeks of the accident.
The numbers for depth of pinger receiver, its expected range, and the depth of the mountainous ocean floor where AF447 went down left me wondering, "Why bother except to put on a good show?"
JD-EE