AF447
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flyblue
I originally thought the two jumpseats were attached to an aft bulkhead (structural or otherwise) because of the seeming reduced radius apparent at the perimeter of the curved joint with Fuselage inner skin. If the structure's termination in a straight line adjacent the 'inner' seat is a 'passageway', it suggests a narrow (overall) width. The Fuselage forward does not reduce its diameter until forward of where the jumps would be.
Also, in observing the belts, it is possible they were 'adjusted' by recovery personnel, although one is doubtful that pros would in any way alter the appearance or the ability of evidence to tell a story when closely examined. I think they were well aft and near the pressure vessel's aft terminus.
I originally thought the two jumpseats were attached to an aft bulkhead (structural or otherwise) because of the seeming reduced radius apparent at the perimeter of the curved joint with Fuselage inner skin. If the structure's termination in a straight line adjacent the 'inner' seat is a 'passageway', it suggests a narrow (overall) width. The Fuselage forward does not reduce its diameter until forward of where the jumps would be.
Also, in observing the belts, it is possible they were 'adjusted' by recovery personnel, although one is doubtful that pros would in any way alter the appearance or the ability of evidence to tell a story when closely examined. I think they were well aft and near the pressure vessel's aft terminus.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We have pictures of a VS no longer attached to the rest of the aircraft. A data point. I see no evidence one way or the other as to when the VS ceased to be attached: At 35,000 ft? At 15,000 ft? At 0 feet?
Thread Starter
Harry: Well I've been trying - sometimes Pprune outruns me... (edit) have double-backread everything now - not sure what your point is?
Pontius: true.
Pontius: true.
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 13th Jun 2009 at 20:17.
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Will Fraser,
the twin jumpseats FWD have the CIDS located above them. That's why I'd say the ones shown are AFT. There doesn't seem to be a trace of the CIDS on the pictures, although it is impossible to be sure without a close examination, the pictures are not clear enough.
the twin jumpseats FWD have the CIDS located above them. That's why I'd say the ones shown are AFT. There doesn't seem to be a trace of the CIDS on the pictures, although it is impossible to be sure without a close examination, the pictures are not clear enough.
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Maximum range for the TCAS to display a target is only 40 NM ...
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Maximum range for the TCAS to display a target is only 40 NM ...
The recap, this time in my own words is:
-They took off 7 minutes later on the A320 to follow "dead on" the tail of the AF 330
-At some point, they had TCAS contact and the captain had an eye on it to monitor, as they were sharing the route and fairly close.
-The Iberia pilot believed the AF was about 80 miles dead straight ahead when he noticed bad patch of weather coming and decided to start a change in the scheduled course and turn east some 30 miles to circunvent it (potentially leaving the AF, around 8 minutes ahead, in a course to go through this rough weather patch). He believes this coincided almost exactly when the moment the AF went "missing".
-The Iberia pilot wasn't really "afraid" for the AF when they weren't answering ATC figuring perhaps they had a transporder/communication problems as, in his opinion, there was nothing unusual at all with the weather or circunstances around the area, in spite of some "normal" rough patches. He was surprised to later find out the AF had likely crashed as he couldn't figure out a situation with such high risk of accident (at all), in spite of occasional bad weather spots. He insists circunstances were well within, and even "below", normal for the route, while not "perfect" or "great", but not unusually bad or even "strong". Just plain old bad-ish. Certainly nothing in his opinion to warrant a high risk of accident. Of course, he wants to make clear that, in the aprox. 8 minutes that separated them, the weather could've changed quite a bit as it's unpredictable, but he just can't believe it could've turned so bad as to endanger the AF to the point of catastrophy, but with the weather, everything is, of course, possible.
FWIW
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Good point Chu-Chu. Looked it up, the 2-liter soda bottles are good to 50 psi.
Cabin differential pressure at 35k ft is 9 psi. Can't be as confident as before, but those clear water bottles in the photo are more flimsy than the 2-litter ones. Might do a little experiment in the hangar later.
Cabin differential pressure at 35k ft is 9 psi. Can't be as confident as before, but those clear water bottles in the photo are more flimsy than the 2-litter ones. Might do a little experiment in the hangar later.
Not sure you can tell much either way from the condition of those bottles. They may have been emptied at altitude, had tightened caps, partially collapsed at sea level and popped back when opened after recovery.
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PatriciaG
Interesting item. Thinking human factors, I'm also interested in whether people who are in a broken & tumbling aircraft would, for some reason based on primal instinct, unlatch their safety belt. I know people who jump from great heights and start to tumble have a natural overpowering urge to reach out for something to stabilize them. To unlatch their safety belt would position them to be more effected by air and water currents.
Harry Mann referred to analysis of the Comet breakups where they concluded wave action was responsible for (at least some)clothing removal. I never would've considered that before but thinking of how my water-saturated-loostened-weighted clothing behaved when I swam with clothes on, it sure clicks with me.
As to whether clothes could be removed by decompression, my personal experience with only 'rapid' decompression in an altitude chamber says no-way. As for explosive decompression and airframe breakup you MUST refer to other accidents (at altitude over dry land) where that would have been the dominate possibility and what the outcome was.
We do have a case of rapid-or-explosive decompression of a B737 near Hawaii where a flight attendent was pulled from the cabin. I saw the photos of passengers after landing and saw NO EVIDENCE or remarks of clothing removal.
Just asking.
Maybe all people, falling over land or sea get stripped by the air pressure or later by the ocean.
As to whether clothes could be removed by decompression, my personal experience with only 'rapid' decompression in an altitude chamber says no-way. As for explosive decompression and airframe breakup you MUST refer to other accidents (at altitude over dry land) where that would have been the dominate possibility and what the outcome was.
We do have a case of rapid-or-explosive decompression of a B737 near Hawaii where a flight attendent was pulled from the cabin. I saw the photos of passengers after landing and saw NO EVIDENCE or remarks of clothing removal.
Pattern is full - What Harry is saying is that (prior occurrences and research have shown) there is no correlation to the remains being "clothed / unclothed" and the height (if any) from which they fell. Especially after many days in the ocean. In additon to the comments immediately above this, there are (or were) posts early in this thread discussing this point and citing sources.
All who are wondering about seatbelt positions, bottles being crumpled or not, and other thoughts related to "condition": If (and its a big "if") the people who first came into contact with items from AF447 were properly trained (or at least briefed) then many photos of each item will have been taken prior to any contact by human or machine (if at all possible). Having said that, even if it was done, in some cases it will be of little or no help, but in others it often turns out to be useful.
All who are wondering about seatbelt positions, bottles being crumpled or not, and other thoughts related to "condition": If (and its a big "if") the people who first came into contact with items from AF447 were properly trained (or at least briefed) then many photos of each item will have been taken prior to any contact by human or machine (if at all possible). Having said that, even if it was done, in some cases it will be of little or no help, but in others it often turns out to be useful.
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Will be astonished if the searchers touch anything on those debris..as they are evidences ...
They had certainly be briefed for not disturb any pieces of evidence..
They had certainly be briefed for not disturb any pieces of evidence..
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Quote from Aviation Herald:
The FAB said on Jun 13th, that a merchant ship "Gammagas" on the route from Uruguay to the United Kingdom discovered and recovered the rugged structure of the aircraft about 415km northwest of St. Peter and Paul.
The FAB said on Jun 13th, that a merchant ship "Gammagas" on the route from Uruguay to the United Kingdom discovered and recovered the rugged structure of the aircraft about 415km northwest of St. Peter and Paul.
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communications
Thanks Yaw String, Justme69 & Slotpolice for your inputs.
Wouldn't be "normal" the IB pilot try to call AF447 on open freq to advise that control is trying to reach him? Specially that control began its calls at almost the same moment AF "disapeared" from his TCAS display.
Would be important to know more about this a/c that was ahead of AF447, if he heard control calling AF 447, if he heard Iberia's deviation report...
Wouldn't be "normal" the IB pilot try to call AF447 on open freq to advise that control is trying to reach him? Specially that control began its calls at almost the same moment AF "disapeared" from his TCAS display.
Would be important to know more about this a/c that was ahead of AF447, if he heard control calling AF 447, if he heard Iberia's deviation report...
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cesarnc
A set of people, even when exposed to precisely the same conditions would do different things. These crews weren't exposed to precisely the same conditions.
Makes one wonder on the decision discrepancy. One thought he should circunvent, the other didn't... I'm not saying the AF crew did something wrong, though... You must be there to know what's going on....But... it makes you wonder.
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pattern_is_full
I see multiple vague possibilities but haven't heard of cookies or free jump-seat tickets or public recognition ceremonies being offered to the person who makes the first correct guess.
ttcse and grizzled: Thanks. So we're still left with far too few dots to connect into a picture yet.
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The FAB said on Jun 13th, that a merchant ship "Gammagas" on the route from Uruguay to the United Kingdom discovered and recovered the rugged structure of the aircraft about 415km northwest of St. Peter and Paul.
pattern is full
Exactly! (re connecting dots)
Even after the FDR and CVR are found, recovered and analysed (which I believe will happen) and even if much of the aircraft itself were to be recovered, connecting the dots will still be a very long, tedious and expensive process. And, in the end, some of the lines will likely remain forever dotted (best guess) as opposed to solid (factual).
Exactly! (re connecting dots)
Even after the FDR and CVR are found, recovered and analysed (which I believe will happen) and even if much of the aircraft itself were to be recovered, connecting the dots will still be a very long, tedious and expensive process. And, in the end, some of the lines will likely remain forever dotted (best guess) as opposed to solid (factual).