AF447
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Safety Concerns,
Thanks. I understand/extrapolate from your answer that the PHCs are powered independently; and also that you expect to see a specific message if there is any problem including the loss of power. So then what could cause all 3 to go at once (IF that's what happened).
I suppose there is still a possibility that the recorded list of events is incomplete and some earlier items did not go through for some reason?
Somebody reading these logs regularly, could perhaps tell, what is the max. number of messages per second one could expect?
Thanks. I understand/extrapolate from your answer that the PHCs are powered independently; and also that you expect to see a specific message if there is any problem including the loss of power. So then what could cause all 3 to go at once (IF that's what happened).
I suppose there is still a possibility that the recorded list of events is incomplete and some earlier items did not go through for some reason?
Somebody reading these logs regularly, could perhaps tell, what is the max. number of messages per second one could expect?
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Does anyone have any info as the the location where the VS was found in comparison to the other debris and victims that have been discovered? If the VS was found many kms away from the other debris, that would imply that it separated from the rest of the aircraft at some altitude rather than by surface impact.
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but
I thnk the coffin corner business is part of the airspeed problems. it would have been easy enough to stumble a bit closer to the regime called coffin corner if you are way off your airspeed.
stall speed is changed a bit under heavy G loading...and we don't yet know what the turbulence did to G loading on a plane that might have been flying too slow due to poor airspeed information.
if the airspeed was off 35 knots (unknown) and the flight envelope was 25 knots on either side...one could easily stumble.
I want to make it clear that in normal operation with normal instruments etc. FL350 was probably a normal choice.
stall speed is changed a bit under heavy G loading...and we don't yet know what the turbulence did to G loading on a plane that might have been flying too slow due to poor airspeed information.
if the airspeed was off 35 knots (unknown) and the flight envelope was 25 knots on either side...one could easily stumble.
I want to make it clear that in normal operation with normal instruments etc. FL350 was probably a normal choice.
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Somewhere care to translate? Their English version isn't up yet:
09/06/2009 - 11h52
Nota 22 - 09.06.09
INFORMAÇÕES SOBRE AS BUSCAS DO VOO 447 DA AIR FRANCE
O Comando da Marinha e o Comando da Aeronáutica informam que a Fragata Constituição chegou às 6h15 (horário de Brasília), a um ponto distante 55 quilômetros a nordeste do Arquipélago de Fernando de Noronha. Nesta manhã, um Helicóptero H-60 Blackhawk e um H-34 Super Puma, ambos da Força Aérea Brasileira (FAB), decolaram para recolher os primeiros 16 corpos a bordo da fragata.
Após a liberação em Fernando de Noronha, uma vez cumprida a atividade pericial inicial pela Polícia Federal, os corpos serão transportados para Recife em uma aeronave C-130 da Força Aérea Brasileira. O tempo estimado até Recife é de uma hora.
Uma linha de instabilidade na região de Fernando de Noronha atrasou a operação de transporte de corpos e poderá limitar os vôos que partem do Arquipélago ao longo do dia. No entanto, as condições meteorológicas na área de busca não interferem nas operações em andamento.
Nesta Manhã, foram resgatados mais quatro corpos pela Fragata Bosísio, da Marinha do Brasil, o que eleva para 28 o número total de corpos resgatados até o presente momento.
O efetivo e os meios empregados na missão permanecem sem alteração. As ações de busca e resgate continuarão de forma ininterrupta, concentradas nos pontos onde foram localizados os corpos.
CENTRO DE COMUNICAÇÃO SOCIAL DA MARINHA
CENTRO DE COMUNICAÇÃO SOCIAL DA AERONÁUTICA
09/06/2009 - 11h52
Nota 22 - 09.06.09
INFORMAÇÕES SOBRE AS BUSCAS DO VOO 447 DA AIR FRANCE
O Comando da Marinha e o Comando da Aeronáutica informam que a Fragata Constituição chegou às 6h15 (horário de Brasília), a um ponto distante 55 quilômetros a nordeste do Arquipélago de Fernando de Noronha. Nesta manhã, um Helicóptero H-60 Blackhawk e um H-34 Super Puma, ambos da Força Aérea Brasileira (FAB), decolaram para recolher os primeiros 16 corpos a bordo da fragata.
Após a liberação em Fernando de Noronha, uma vez cumprida a atividade pericial inicial pela Polícia Federal, os corpos serão transportados para Recife em uma aeronave C-130 da Força Aérea Brasileira. O tempo estimado até Recife é de uma hora.
Uma linha de instabilidade na região de Fernando de Noronha atrasou a operação de transporte de corpos e poderá limitar os vôos que partem do Arquipélago ao longo do dia. No entanto, as condições meteorológicas na área de busca não interferem nas operações em andamento.
Nesta Manhã, foram resgatados mais quatro corpos pela Fragata Bosísio, da Marinha do Brasil, o que eleva para 28 o número total de corpos resgatados até o presente momento.
O efetivo e os meios empregados na missão permanecem sem alteração. As ações de busca e resgate continuarão de forma ininterrupta, concentradas nos pontos onde foram localizados os corpos.
CENTRO DE COMUNICAÇÃO SOCIAL DA MARINHA
CENTRO DE COMUNICAÇÃO SOCIAL DA AERONÁUTICA
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09/06/2009 - 11h52
Note 22 - 09:06:09
INFORMATION ON SEARCHES OF THE AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447
The Navy Command of the Air Command and the Frigate Constitution report that reached the 6:15 a.m. (schedule of Brasília), at a point distant 55 kilometers northeast of the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha. This morning, a helicopter H-60 Blackhawk and a H-34 Super Puma, both the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), off to collect the first 16 bodies on board the frigate.
After the release in Fernando de Noronha, once met the expert initial activity by the federal police, the bodies will be transported to Recife in a C-130 aircraft of the Brazilian Air Force. The estimated time to reef is an hour.
A line of instability in the region of Fernando de Noronha delayed the operation of transporting bodies and may limit the flights leaving the archipelago throughout the day. However, the weather in the area of search will not interfere in the operations in progress.
This morning, four more bodies were recovered by Frigate Bosísio, the Brazilian Navy, which brings to 28 the total number of bodies recovered so far.
The effective and the means employed in the mission remains unchanged. The actions of search and rescue will continue on an ongoing, concentrated in places where the bodies were located.
MEDIA CENTER OF MARINE
Text and Web - Google Translate#
Note 22 - 09:06:09
INFORMATION ON SEARCHES OF THE AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447
The Navy Command of the Air Command and the Frigate Constitution report that reached the 6:15 a.m. (schedule of Brasília), at a point distant 55 kilometers northeast of the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha. This morning, a helicopter H-60 Blackhawk and a H-34 Super Puma, both the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), off to collect the first 16 bodies on board the frigate.
After the release in Fernando de Noronha, once met the expert initial activity by the federal police, the bodies will be transported to Recife in a C-130 aircraft of the Brazilian Air Force. The estimated time to reef is an hour.
A line of instability in the region of Fernando de Noronha delayed the operation of transporting bodies and may limit the flights leaving the archipelago throughout the day. However, the weather in the area of search will not interfere in the operations in progress.
This morning, four more bodies were recovered by Frigate Bosísio, the Brazilian Navy, which brings to 28 the total number of bodies recovered so far.
The effective and the means employed in the mission remains unchanged. The actions of search and rescue will continue on an ongoing, concentrated in places where the bodies were located.
MEDIA CENTER OF MARINE
Text and Web - Google Translate#
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Would like to point out that vertical leading edge is in fantastic shape. Not even the paint is chipped. This would rule out an intense hail encounter. So the radome debris impacting the pitot tubes can be ruled out.
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004
@727GM
Once again we have no indication that any of the ACARS messages were
related to a loss of VS. To say otherwise is not helping this thread. The
aircraft in question would not have suddenly started wagging its tail for lack
of ADIRUs, nor has there been any demonstrated sane reasoning shown so
far that would support our PF to have suddenly had an urge to start
stomping away at his rudder pedals.
Once again we have no indication that any of the ACARS messages were
related to a loss of VS. To say otherwise is not helping this thread. The
aircraft in question would not have suddenly started wagging its tail for lack
of ADIRUs, nor has there been any demonstrated sane reasoning shown so
far that would support our PF to have suddenly had an urge to start
stomping away at his rudder pedals.
Not saying anything about ADIRU's, or sudden wagging of tail.
Not saying anything about anyone "stomping" on anything.
Doesn't help thread to try to put words in other poster's mouths.
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Af 447
I am not a great fan of these tabloid style threads,
But when I see dead colleagues being criticized, I feel I have to react.
441A, Who are you to judge without any knowledge of what happened?
Have a little respect for the victims and let the pros do their work.
But when I see dead colleagues being criticized, I feel I have to react.
441A, Who are you to judge without any knowledge of what happened?
Have a little respect for the victims and let the pros do their work.
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DC-ATE,
In alternate law the damper function is limited to +/- 4° rudder in CONF 0 and +/- 15° in other configuration, while the maximum rudder angle will be locked at +/- 10° in CONF 0. (Its full travel value is regained with the slats extended.)
In alternate law the damper function is limited to +/- 4° rudder in CONF 0 and +/- 15° in other configuration, while the maximum rudder angle will be locked at +/- 10° in CONF 0. (Its full travel value is regained with the slats extended.)
Last edited by Config Full; 9th Jun 2009 at 21:10.
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Trash_Hauler, with all due respect, I would postulate that smallish pictures can depict significant hail damage from a distance,
(Edit; thanks Saigon, Photo two doors down.)
in poor light.
Granted, the vert leading edge is composite, so dents wouldn't occur, but significant hail would have scarred/chipped the paint.
(Edit; thanks Saigon, Photo two doors down.)
in poor light.
Granted, the vert leading edge is composite, so dents wouldn't occur, but significant hail would have scarred/chipped the paint.
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Rudder Travel Limit
There is much talk about it here. Could anybody explain why the report of the Air Caraibe incidents of lst year August & September states the following:
Conrol Alternate Law:
la valeur maximale du debattement est gelee a 10°
means the value of max rudder travel is locked at 10°
The ACARS msg refers to exactly that situation, they were at Controls 'Altn Law'. I think those pilots would need no other indication, they would know what Altn Law means. Just for those who keep asking, if there is any indication.
Let me say more, I am before retirement, I have been flying with a lot bright young pilots over the years, who did a very good job. Insinuating that todays young pilots are less trained or do not have the experience required is an assumption which should not be generalized. Just my oppinion...
Conrol Alternate Law:
la valeur maximale du debattement est gelee a 10°
means the value of max rudder travel is locked at 10°
The ACARS msg refers to exactly that situation, they were at Controls 'Altn Law'. I think those pilots would need no other indication, they would know what Altn Law means. Just for those who keep asking, if there is any indication.
Let me say more, I am before retirement, I have been flying with a lot bright young pilots over the years, who did a very good job. Insinuating that todays young pilots are less trained or do not have the experience required is an assumption which should not be generalized. Just my oppinion...
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Trash_Hauler, with all due respect, I would postulate that smallish pictures can depict significant hail damage from a distance, in poor light.
Granted, the vert leading edge is composite, so dents wouldn't occur, but significant hail would have scarred/chipped the paint.
Granted, the vert leading edge is composite, so dents wouldn't occur, but significant hail would have scarred/chipped the paint.
Snopes doesn't let you hotlink their photos but here it is:
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Rudder hard over ....
Let's put this one to rest once and for all ! 
The message F/CTL RUD TRV LIM Fault is justified by the loss of the ADR data.
As said previously in this thread, the rudder travel is then limited to 10 degrees and full deflection is only recovered at slats extension.
An Air Caraibe A330 incident report is circulating (in french) which describes a (survived) event sounding very similar to the AF447 event.
In the air Caraibe event (which I will try to find in english)....icing over of the Ptot probes and TAT probe at FL 350, in transoceanic equatorial WX, with severe turbulence, occured.
The following ECAM messages, flags and system reversions are consistent with the ones reported ont the AF447 ACARS report.
As decribed earlier in this thread, the TAT increase from -14 to -5 degrees typical of an iced up probe measuring the ice temperature instead of the Ram Air.
At some point in this event the CAS, MACH and ALT go respectively from 274Kts, M0.80 and FL350 to 85kts
, M0.26 and FL347.
At the same time the cascade of ECAM warnings and cautions include NAV ADR Disagree, F/CTL ALT LAW, F/CTL RUD TRV LIM, ENG EPR mode faults (different engines there), Speed Flags on PFDs, loss of FDs, A/THR, etc....Including at some point STALL STALL audio warning (no protection in ALT LAW)
Summarily, the PF flew "pitch and power" with PNF on QRH unreliable speed indication, disregarding the STALL warning and using backup info of GPS Ground speed and Altitude (ND and FMGC).
Air Caraibe has modified all the 330 probes earlier this year.
Again, the Air caraibe report is VERY similar to what is now known of the AF447 troubles. (Weather, turbulence, airspeed data problems)
The message F/CTL RUD TRV LIM Fault is justified by the loss of the ADR data.
As said previously in this thread, the rudder travel is then limited to 10 degrees and full deflection is only recovered at slats extension.
An Air Caraibe A330 incident report is circulating (in french) which describes a (survived) event sounding very similar to the AF447 event.
In the air Caraibe event (which I will try to find in english)....icing over of the Ptot probes and TAT probe at FL 350, in transoceanic equatorial WX, with severe turbulence, occured.
The following ECAM messages, flags and system reversions are consistent with the ones reported ont the AF447 ACARS report.
As decribed earlier in this thread, the TAT increase from -14 to -5 degrees typical of an iced up probe measuring the ice temperature instead of the Ram Air.
At some point in this event the CAS, MACH and ALT go respectively from 274Kts, M0.80 and FL350 to 85kts
, M0.26 and FL347.At the same time the cascade of ECAM warnings and cautions include NAV ADR Disagree, F/CTL ALT LAW, F/CTL RUD TRV LIM, ENG EPR mode faults (different engines there), Speed Flags on PFDs, loss of FDs, A/THR, etc....Including at some point STALL STALL audio warning (no protection in ALT LAW)
Summarily, the PF flew "pitch and power" with PNF on QRH unreliable speed indication, disregarding the STALL warning and using backup info of GPS Ground speed and Altitude (ND and FMGC).
Air Caraibe has modified all the 330 probes earlier this year.
Again, the Air caraibe report is VERY similar to what is now known of the AF447 troubles. (Weather, turbulence, airspeed data problems)
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etesting2000
Thanks for the link, very informative. Let's concentrate in recoverig the FDR/CVR instead of speculating so much about things we do not know.
Cost should not play a part in a possible recovery mission , it has not been made public any plans about having suitable deep sea exploration vehicles on standby in the area not to waste time should the boxes be located towars the end of their battery life.
How fustrating would it be to locate the pinger and then by the time the exploration vehicles arrive not to be able to find the boxes due to the drift caused by currents?
There had been some talk earlier that we as humans did not have the capability to search to the depths where this incident occured. This has recently changed. Woods Hole Oceanagraphic Institute demonstrated 6.8 Miles at the bottom of the Mariana Trench on May 31, 2009.
link to press release
News Release : Hybrid Remotely Operated Vehicle “Nereus” Reaches Deepest Part of the Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
link to press release
News Release : Hybrid Remotely Operated Vehicle “Nereus” Reaches Deepest Part of the Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Cost should not play a part in a possible recovery mission , it has not been made public any plans about having suitable deep sea exploration vehicles on standby in the area not to waste time should the boxes be located towars the end of their battery life.
How fustrating would it be to locate the pinger and then by the time the exploration vehicles arrive not to be able to find the boxes due to the drift caused by currents?
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@captainflame:
That's exactly what I mean, the link had been posted yesterday by Svarin.
What caught my attention was, that they had contraversial documentation regarding to follow or not a possible Stall Warning. It's been the correct decision of the Cpt to NOT FOLLOW. The ACA crew was avoiding a CB flying in a Cirrus. Imagine this scenario surrounded by CBs at night.............
That's exactly what I mean, the link had been posted yesterday by Svarin.
What caught my attention was, that they had contraversial documentation regarding to follow or not a possible Stall Warning. It's been the correct decision of the Cpt to NOT FOLLOW. The ACA crew was avoiding a CB flying in a Cirrus. Imagine this scenario surrounded by CBs at night.............
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French ship Pourquoi Pas left Cape Verde this Tuesday to help in the search for A330's black boxes.
The ship carries three submarine robots, two of which are able to dive down to 6,000m. The other is capable of operating for 12 hours, navigating in triangles and is able to get signs and point towards the exact location of the black boxes, according to the French Embassy in Praia, Cape Verde's capital.
Translated from Brazilian news website Terra.
The ship carries three submarine robots, two of which are able to dive down to 6,000m. The other is capable of operating for 12 hours, navigating in triangles and is able to get signs and point towards the exact location of the black boxes, according to the French Embassy in Praia, Cape Verde's capital.
Translated from Brazilian news website Terra.
