Airbus crash/training flight
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Ah!!!!!
very stupid!!!
You are flying, and perhaps you think you are the best!
I do maintenance, for more than 30 years, and believe me it is not always as easy as you think it is. Sometimes we have tricky problems, bad or imcomplete reports from crews, time constraints, environmental pressure, organisational problems, and it is a non exhaustive list.
A lot of improvement have been made the last ten years, but unlike the magical pilots, engineers are humans and as such can do mistakes.
Have you been already in a hangar during nightshift, when we try to fix all the problem you had during the day, or in a C-Check, when the only left of your flying machine is a tube, and millions of parts scattered on shelves, or on line maintenance, during turn around, in **** weather trying to find why on earth this damned aircraft is veering during to the left 4.5° when all seems OK.
I have been flying a lot, and I realised how a flight can turn from routine to a highly stressed situation whithin seconds, and I do understand why sometimes pilots (human one, not like you) can quick get to reach the limits.
But if I would say that pilots are only good in CAVOK conditions and with no technical problems, that the autopilot is leading the show and that you are only here for monitoring screens and chatting with skirtcrews, you would not appreciate!!! And you would be right, because it is not true!!!
So please, get in touch with a proper engineer to know about maintenance, get teach about humanity, and humility will touch you...
hopefully
very stupid!!!
You are flying, and perhaps you think you are the best!
I do maintenance, for more than 30 years, and believe me it is not always as easy as you think it is. Sometimes we have tricky problems, bad or imcomplete reports from crews, time constraints, environmental pressure, organisational problems, and it is a non exhaustive list.
A lot of improvement have been made the last ten years, but unlike the magical pilots, engineers are humans and as such can do mistakes.
Have you been already in a hangar during nightshift, when we try to fix all the problem you had during the day, or in a C-Check, when the only left of your flying machine is a tube, and millions of parts scattered on shelves, or on line maintenance, during turn around, in **** weather trying to find why on earth this damned aircraft is veering during to the left 4.5° when all seems OK.
I have been flying a lot, and I realised how a flight can turn from routine to a highly stressed situation whithin seconds, and I do understand why sometimes pilots (human one, not like you) can quick get to reach the limits.
But if I would say that pilots are only good in CAVOK conditions and with no technical problems, that the autopilot is leading the show and that you are only here for monitoring screens and chatting with skirtcrews, you would not appreciate!!! And you would be right, because it is not true!!!
So please, get in touch with a proper engineer to know about maintenance, get teach about humanity, and humility will touch you...
hopefully
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QED ? and by the words of an engineer no less. "engineers are human, and as such can do mistakes"
Aha. . . . & then it is bolted together again & off it goes.
As previous posters said, it is not a criticism of your professionalism or ability, merely an observation based on your admission that mistakes can & will be made (Oh & in some cases we talk subsequent to a "bad experience"
)
We make mistakes, you make mistakes, but we are the ones left holding the baby, trying to avoid "dismantling" your good work all over the countryside.
To further complicate the issue, our mistakes , and their consequences ,are felt in real time. Yours may lie in wait for days, months or years before something goes twang.
I should add, that we sympathise for the lack of "protection" that you don't have from flight time regulations etc.
We don't expect you to be perfect, as indeed we are not in a position to claim or demand "perfection", but please don't question our misgivings when flying an aircraft after it has been dismantled into thousands of pieces, our misgivings are based on hard experience.
Aha. . . . & then it is bolted together again & off it goes.
As previous posters said, it is not a criticism of your professionalism or ability, merely an observation based on your admission that mistakes can & will be made (Oh & in some cases we talk subsequent to a "bad experience"
)We make mistakes, you make mistakes, but we are the ones left holding the baby, trying to avoid "dismantling" your good work all over the countryside.
To further complicate the issue, our mistakes , and their consequences ,are felt in real time. Yours may lie in wait for days, months or years before something goes twang.
I should add, that we sympathise for the lack of "protection" that you don't have from flight time regulations etc.
We don't expect you to be perfect, as indeed we are not in a position to claim or demand "perfection", but please don't question our misgivings when flying an aircraft after it has been dismantled into thousands of pieces, our misgivings are based on hard experience.
Report out on a 2007 United Airlines A320 mishap, blamed on maintenance error:
Timco error at root of United Air Lines runway excursion
Timco error at root of United Air Lines runway excursion
Join Date: May 2007
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Delam
Flying control delamination.
It's not unusual to find it and you would expect that if you were to find it it would be on a big check. It isn't a sign of lack of maintainance at the facility where it is found, quite the reverse, they are doing their job properly.
Lead times for flying control surfaces is long although you would expect the next aircraft in the maint line to be robbed of the part required in this case to get the other away.
It's not unheard of for a delay in aircraft servicability off check to be blamed on an item like this when in truth many factors could be holding it up.
Don't think there is anything to see here.
It's not unusual to find it and you would expect that if you were to find it it would be on a big check. It isn't a sign of lack of maintainance at the facility where it is found, quite the reverse, they are doing their job properly.
Lead times for flying control surfaces is long although you would expect the next aircraft in the maint line to be robbed of the part required in this case to get the other away.
It's not unheard of for a delay in aircraft servicability off check to be blamed on an item like this when in truth many factors could be holding it up.
Don't think there is anything to see here.
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Hi All,
First of all, happy new year to you all (that includes Mr. Engineer), may 2009 brings safer sky to all of us.
Commenting of His Excellency Mr Engineer's response to the issue, is it really appropriate to state that most pilots are in humane?? You are saying that, as would normal human beings do, engineers make mistakes, and of course, pilots do as well- no questions, full stop. But please, most of us do all this for our wives and kids, You engineers do, we pilots do, and if you Engineers are complaining for always being blamed for everything, while you do all the checks so on so forth in **** weather, and ask us-pilots, to imagine how it feels to work all night trying to fix what we did during the day, how about us??
If you do mistakes, the worst thing can happens are as follows:
1.Aircraft Crashes
2.You-engineers get blamed, and worse, get in to jail (which is least likely anyways)
3. Us -Pilots??? Get Six Feet Under...
So DO YOU MR ENGINEEER really have any right at all, to complain and say that US Pilots are inhumane?? Think again.... Think... If you still have some spare brain ability to think..... So Mr engineer?? still complaining????
SS
First of all, happy new year to you all (that includes Mr. Engineer), may 2009 brings safer sky to all of us.
Commenting of His Excellency Mr Engineer's response to the issue, is it really appropriate to state that most pilots are in humane?? You are saying that, as would normal human beings do, engineers make mistakes, and of course, pilots do as well- no questions, full stop. But please, most of us do all this for our wives and kids, You engineers do, we pilots do, and if you Engineers are complaining for always being blamed for everything, while you do all the checks so on so forth in **** weather, and ask us-pilots, to imagine how it feels to work all night trying to fix what we did during the day, how about us??
If you do mistakes, the worst thing can happens are as follows:
1.Aircraft Crashes
2.You-engineers get blamed, and worse, get in to jail (which is least likely anyways)
3. Us -Pilots??? Get Six Feet Under...
So DO YOU MR ENGINEEER really have any right at all, to complain and say that US Pilots are inhumane?? Think again.... Think... If you still have some spare brain ability to think..... So Mr engineer?? still complaining????
SS
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Mod,
You removed my previous and admitedly rather snide, post but this thread is degenerating into a urinating contest between Pilots and Engineers that does our industry no credit whatsoever and certainly is not relevant to the tragic accident this thread purports to have as a subject.
I must say, I also find it very unprofessional that so many posters are happy to bash another country's processes and people - "Well it's alright to bash them, they're French" seems a very low-brow attitude for a group of people whose role in life is aviation - to build links between nations. Just about every juristiction in the world has processes that seem very odd to other juristictions but professional people accept that, respect that and do their job.
BTW, Airbus is not French - if you don't believe me, say it's French in Broughton or Hamburg or even in parts of Spain and see what reaction you get! But I guess we won't let that get in the way of a good bashing session!
Can I plead for a return to the thread subject and an end to the bashing.
We need Pilots and we need Engineers and we need both from all the nations of the world - full stop.
Saman
You removed my previous and admitedly rather snide, post but this thread is degenerating into a urinating contest between Pilots and Engineers that does our industry no credit whatsoever and certainly is not relevant to the tragic accident this thread purports to have as a subject.
I must say, I also find it very unprofessional that so many posters are happy to bash another country's processes and people - "Well it's alright to bash them, they're French" seems a very low-brow attitude for a group of people whose role in life is aviation - to build links between nations. Just about every juristiction in the world has processes that seem very odd to other juristictions but professional people accept that, respect that and do their job.
BTW, Airbus is not French - if you don't believe me, say it's French in Broughton or Hamburg or even in parts of Spain and see what reaction you get! But I guess we won't let that get in the way of a good bashing session!
Can I plead for a return to the thread subject and an end to the bashing.
We need Pilots and we need Engineers and we need both from all the nations of the world - full stop.
Saman
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You lot must hate me
As a licenced pilot and engineer who untill very recently worked for a UK company flying on a German AOC based in France working a contract for a French AOC holder that was working for a German holiday group I must have all the ticks in the boxes for all of you to aim some of your petty predudces at !
All I know about this inccident is that two guys that I worked with are dead ( as well as five guys I did not Know) and all most of you lot want to do is air your pathetic childish and unsuportable veiws.
Get back on subject, we would all like to get to the truth of this tragic accident the last four pages has added little to the debate, all it has done is shown some of you to be very immature and small minded
All I know about this inccident is that two guys that I worked with are dead ( as well as five guys I did not Know) and all most of you lot want to do is air your pathetic childish and unsuportable veiws.
Get back on subject, we would all like to get to the truth of this tragic accident the last four pages has added little to the debate, all it has done is shown some of you to be very immature and small minded
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Thank you! Let´s go back to work and wait until we have solid information. Let us show the necessary respect to our fellow pilots who lost their lifes while on duty.
N. rest in peace, I am very sad.
N. rest in peace, I am very sad.
I've got a feeling I'm going to get flamed for asking this question but does anyone know the type of ADIRU fitted to D-AXLA? I only ask because of the other thread about another Qantas ADIRU incident that resulted in a return to land.
I am pretty sure someone here will be able to tell me that they are different bits of kit to those fitted on the A320. ie not Northrop Grumman ones that have caused Qantas grief.
I did troll through looking to see if this question had been asked but gave up after half an hour. Sorry if it's been done.
Regards, Framer.
I am pretty sure someone here will be able to tell me that they are different bits of kit to those fitted on the A320. ie not Northrop Grumman ones that have caused Qantas grief.
I did troll through looking to see if this question had been asked but gave up after half an hour. Sorry if it's been done.
Regards, Framer.
Sorry if I caused any upset to engineers, not intended, they are professionals also ( and I vowed I'd never fly without a F/Eng.for instance - and never did, professionally ) I just want to fly the bloody things, not fix them ! but they would be less than honest if they didn't also admit that mistakes can happen when aircraft are pulled apart and put together again, and a lot of maintenance is fixing what wasn't 'broke' in the first place, decreed by legislation based on time in service.
Sorry chaps.
Sorry chaps.
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Sorry if I caused any upset to engineers, not intended, they are professionals also ( and I vowed I'd never fly without a F/Eng.for instance - and never did, professionally ) I just want to fly the bloody things, not fix them ! but they would be less than honest if they didn't also admit that mistakes can happen when aircraft are pulled apart and put together again, and a lot of maintenance is fixing what wasn't 'broke' in the first place, decreed by legislation based on time in service.
Sorry chaps.
Sorry chaps.
Not read anywhere yet what this A320 was in maintenance for, was it just a series of hand back checks or something heavier?
I hope the investigation is able to prove what caused the accident to help us all avoid the same happening again.
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Originally Posted by Fargoo
Not read anywhere yet what this A320 was in maintenance for, was it just a series of hand back checks or something heavier?
CJ
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Originally Posted by Obie
So the possibility that something was re-installed wrongly has not been excluded a priori.
Err!...could we have a translation of that statement?
Err!...could we have a translation of that statement?
"So the possibility that something was re-installed wrongly has not been dismissed out of hand".
CJ
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"Meikleour
The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!"
That is not true. ( I save me my two "!!" )
Correct is: Lufthansa did all the time flightcontrol checks. They also did on this flight. But what was never published before from airbus, you have to hold the stick for at least one or two seconds to the full extend until a warning is sound. They did not see, that the ailerons where deflecting the opposite way. After the accident LH changed the procedure as the CM2 has to call out loud the deflection and you have to start with the left side first.
Cause of this mishap was:
The ELAC was produced in two different versions and at the maintenance shop they installed the wrong plug and the cables were switched too I think.
A long chain of mistakes which the pilots could not break anymore. At least they did it, when flying.
They did a very good thing that was trained their excessively at the A320 fleet. Senior Training Captain Frisch a long time ago emphasized this and had every student to take over control from the PF by pressing the red takeover button. Standard procedure in the Sim in training. Instructor called from the back into the headset from one pilot to do full deflection to one side or down and not let go. The other pilot did not hear this instruction and had to take over with pressing the button or you lost.
You do not forget this experience in the sim!
Hope this clarified it a little for you.
I had been working with some companies and I must say, LH Passage Training was the best so far and they are very eager and open for new things and trying to improve constantly.
The company ( LH Passage ) is spending a lot of money for training and the training department. The informations you receive as a pilot there are way more superior then what I have seen from other airlines. But this also costs money and they spend it for a safe flight operation. The informations and workouts triggle from the Trainingsdepartment from LH Passage down to the subsidaries like LH Cityline, LHCargo and Condor and are used there as well.
Believe me, there are flightcontrolchecks at Lufthansa ;-)
Fly safe...
The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!"
That is not true. ( I save me my two "!!" )
Correct is: Lufthansa did all the time flightcontrol checks. They also did on this flight. But what was never published before from airbus, you have to hold the stick for at least one or two seconds to the full extend until a warning is sound. They did not see, that the ailerons where deflecting the opposite way. After the accident LH changed the procedure as the CM2 has to call out loud the deflection and you have to start with the left side first.
Cause of this mishap was:
The ELAC was produced in two different versions and at the maintenance shop they installed the wrong plug and the cables were switched too I think.
A long chain of mistakes which the pilots could not break anymore. At least they did it, when flying.
They did a very good thing that was trained their excessively at the A320 fleet. Senior Training Captain Frisch a long time ago emphasized this and had every student to take over control from the PF by pressing the red takeover button. Standard procedure in the Sim in training. Instructor called from the back into the headset from one pilot to do full deflection to one side or down and not let go. The other pilot did not hear this instruction and had to take over with pressing the button or you lost.
You do not forget this experience in the sim!
Hope this clarified it a little for you.
I had been working with some companies and I must say, LH Passage Training was the best so far and they are very eager and open for new things and trying to improve constantly.
The company ( LH Passage ) is spending a lot of money for training and the training department. The informations you receive as a pilot there are way more superior then what I have seen from other airlines. But this also costs money and they spend it for a safe flight operation. The informations and workouts triggle from the Trainingsdepartment from LH Passage down to the subsidaries like LH Cityline, LHCargo and Condor and are used there as well.
Believe me, there are flightcontrolchecks at Lufthansa ;-)
Fly safe...
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Originally Posted by Engine3firehandle
Correct is: Lufthansa did all the time flightcontrol checks. They also did on this flight. But what was never published before from airbus, you have to hold the stick for at least one or two seconds to the full extend until a warning is sound. They did not see, that the ailerons where deflecting the opposite way. After the accident LH changed the procedure as the CM2 has to call out loud the deflection and you have to start with the left side first.
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Good stuff CPT Frisch !
Even better if the SOP does not specify which side to start first with.
After the accident LH changed the procedure as the CM2 has to call out loud the deflection and you have to start with the left side first