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ATC: too many freq swaps ?

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ATC: too many freq swaps ?

Old 23rd Nov 2008, 20:06
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Angry ATC: too many freq swaps ?

Hi everybody!

I start to be really annoyed by those too many and far too early frequency changes. (or late, if inbound, depends)

Especially when this happens as soon as we're hardly airborned, outbounding a busy airport, and going through the normal and heavy workloaded TO/departure sequence. (The reverse way inbound!)

Too many times I got this one:
"Airline ZZZ change with APT departure freq 12x,xxx, bye!"

Each time, I acknowledged and called the new one (I know, I'm on duty):
"Good morning, we're airline ZZZ, flying yyy departure, climbing up to FL XXX."

My favorite answer has always been:
"Good morning airline ZZZ, climb FL X'X'X', and change (again) with 12x,xxx, bye!"

Time spent on the freq, 45" maybe? Average: 4 freq swap

En route, the same, I oftenly change and stay on freq no more than 1'

So, all of above leads me to those questions:

Am I getting too old ?
Do I need to rest ?
Should I fly long haul ?
How useful is that ?
Or
do you usually experience the same ?
And......... any comment about that ?

Many thanks for answers.......
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Old 23rd Nov 2008, 20:44
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It may be helpful if you were to mention the region (or even airports) where this is happening.

Dave
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 08:12
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There's probably worse places av8boy, but CONCOMBRE must be speaking about Moscow (At least my money is on that).

Just 5 seconds to catch your breath after establishing on a new frequency, and it's time to change again.

I think that we should carry a third crew member there just to handle the radio.

Regards,

Old Smokey
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 08:48
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The sectorisation in some parts of France have to be seen to be believed.

Number of freq changes are directly proportional to the workload at the time!

Keep you on your toes though!
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 11:12
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Climbing out of LHR heading North is much the same with multiple frequency, level and heading changes, it has got a lot worse in the last 12 months so something must have changed recently. In answer to your question I don't think it's you getting old, it's the theory and concept of air traffic management which seems way out of date.
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 11:29
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The sectorisation in some parts of France have to be seen to be believed
I'll say, from TOD for Barcelona to around FL200 it's manic, probably 5 frequencies in roughly 10 minutes! Then you have to deal with the Spanish
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 12:21
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Red face

Sorry folks, I should have mentioned some of the places:

This mainly happens to me in, BRUssel, AMSterdam, Fumi, CDG, MAD, BCN....apts
And en route, over France.

From my opinion, this "very short time freq remaining" and " too many times swap" may involve the air safety. Don't you think so?

I also note that there is a lot of other matters to discuss about BCN & MAD radar vectoring

Last edited by CONCOMBRE; 24th Nov 2008 at 13:11.
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 07:22
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not to forget MXP....with stop altitudes below MSA, makes it at times very challenging.
 
Old 25th Nov 2008, 10:50
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Hello,

Just for info... at Brussels the sectors aren't that large, and yes pilots have to change freq's alot... but it is due to the complexibility of the airspace... (as I imagine also valid for PARIS) 3 airports in one line, each separated by about 25 NM... Each controlled by a TOWER/APPROACH,
1 sector (That's BRUSSELS DEPARTURE) providing separation between all inbound/outbound traffic to EBAW, EBCI and between Dep's EBBR...
Not to mention the photomissions, calibrations, training flts around EBBR.

So yes, you'll take off from 25R on the freq of the TWR for the separation with an incoming B747 for BRUCARGO, yes you'll have to switch to DEP for separation with a PA46 who's climbing out of EBAW towards the south, and YES, you'll be transferred ASAP to allow you a continuous climb...
And YES if you're unlucky, you'll contact BRUSSELS CONTROL inbound NIK TOLEN next and YES if you're separated from the inboundstream KERKY-BUN you'll be transferred asap to allow you a continuous climb after FL140 ... with EHAA CONTROL...

I know it isn't interesting, all those freq changes (especially during initial climb, or other demanding phases of the flight)... If there are any Q's about BRUSSELS on this subject, just ask! I'll try to answer it ...
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 13:35
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BM

I'm departing NYC tonight, from Newark eastbound to the ocean. I'll count how many freqs used by New York approach before we are turned over to the Center. I'll bet the number is 3 or less. Same complicated airspace, but with 2 more airline airports and 3 "reliever" airports all within 35 nm.

Somehow it is organized differently here
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 13:22
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It was precisely 3 freqs with New York Departure covering an area the size of Belgium. Busy night, before Thanksgiving. #10 for T/O at EWR and I'll bet it was 30 departures deep at JFK and LGA
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 13:39
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Yep, can be ...
For Belgium ...
Also 3 frequencies, TWR, DEP and AREA ... but of course all on one dime...
Also other procedures.
Just a question, when you depart or arrive from JFK, is it possible that you'll level off for more than one minute? I mean, in initial Climb (lets say below FL100) or arriving?

I think it's a tradeoff between continuous descend/climb and long(er) leveloffs... If you create Procedures who are clear of each other for DEP's and ARRIVALS (on a procedural level and not a radar level) then, you can remain on less freq's... but you might level off at 4000 ft or FL70 for more than 10 NM...
That and the availability of surrounding airspace (MILITARY vs CIVIL)
If you look at Belgium,(not that big!) has 50/50 CIVIL and MILITARY...


Let me know!

Greetings
BM
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 20:26
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Using voice on an amplitude-modulated radio frequency is so outdated as if we still would fly with biplanes. There is only one solution for this mess: Datalink. How many errors happen on an average flight just because of missunderstandings, communication errors and radio wave phenomen. In radio technology we witness a generation change every decade or so. But our aviation radio is still from WW II...

Dani
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 22:52
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Well, the first freq after tower when leaving BRU is good for nothing, you stay on it for 30 to 45s max. The rest of the Dep and Arr seem to be left to only one ATCO, wich leads them to forget ILS clearances (I usually intercept myself, to not get into the way of traffic on the parallel), late descends, unnecessary holding and the like. When another aircraft came straight at me, busting it's altitude and closing in on me, there was NO AVOIDANCE VECTOR GIVEN WHATSOEVER!
There's got to be a better way to handle things at BRU...

Nic
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 23:06
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I'll say, from TOD for Barcelona to around FL200 it's manic, probably 5 frequencies in roughly 10 minutes!
Personally I've never had that at Barcelona, it's always been 2/3 frequencies all the way down from TOD to final and never seemed particularly rushed. If you want a good example, try asking them if they would let you shortcut across 25R on the taxi out to 25L rather than going all the way round. The amount of hassle and faff that creates is unbelievable...
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Old 28th Nov 2008, 08:31
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To Admiral346

Well the DEP freq is indeed in 50% (or something like this) a "luxury" but in the other 50% it is a necessity... Departures from EBCI with a right turn via HUL have to be separated from any dep EBBR leaving also via HUL...
As I said, you can "create" procedures where the freq' of the DEP is not needed anymore...
One slight problem might arise... You might have to level off for several NM, extra TRACKM flying might be needed due to the "new" procedures etc... This effect will ripple through your whole flight, because will you be able to reach a certain level restriction when you levelled of for several NM? etc... Hey don't get me wrong, it's certainly not ideal but you'll have to choose the less bad solution...
About the rest of your "complaints" against the ARR at EBBR... did you ever get HOLDING on the APP frequency or was it still with area control?

Late descends/unnecessary holdings/ no interception headings/ etc ... don't throw that just at them ... PM me or explain me in more detail those things ... maybe I can help you out...
And the level busting/headon thing, what happened? I am pretty sure that the ARR was keeping their minimum separation (3NM) ...
Greetings...


And about the DATALINK,
YEp that's all very nice... for pre-tactical controlling an aircraft...
Or for control in a wide area... where everyone has time .

If it has to go fast, nothing beats the freq... Call me oldfashioned, but if you read climb to FL70 . or you hear a controller "XXX climb to FL70 traffic descending and levelling of 1000 ft above your cleared level"
What do you prefer...
GRTZ
B
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Old 28th Nov 2008, 13:22
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BM

It was radar all the way up-cleared to 17,000 with 4 or 5 near continuous right turns from a R/Y 22 departure to 040, climbing non-stop all the way-in a Global Express at about 3000 fpm.

Yes, mil traffic is a problem, in the US, all mil traffic is controlled by the FAA except in discrete areas.

GF
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 10:22
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BM, data link doesn't mean that you have to get your ATC instructions in writing. You could compress audio files and distribute it in burst mode on a adequate frequency. The audio file would then be decompressed in the cockpit and be audible as if your controller would be standing behind your back.

As a backup mode you still could be using an AM frequency - but it would be veery calm

Dani
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 11:23
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Galaxy Flyer

It was radar all the way up-cleared to 17,000 with 4 or 5 near continuous right turns from a R/Y 22 departure to 040, climbing non-stop all the way..
That statement does not sit with
...Same complicated airspace...
If you can get a continuous climb of 17,000 feet it either means the airspace is

not busy and/or not complicated or,

you are flying at off peak times.

...3 freqs with New York Departure covering an area the size of Belgium...
again doesn't suggest a particularly complex piece of airspace with lots of crossing inbound and outbound routes.

Not having a go at you, but I think one persons idea of congested/complex airspace might be different from anothers!

Max Angle

Climbing out of LHR heading North is much the same with multiple frequency, level and heading changes, it has got a lot worse in the last 12 months so something must have changed recently
Nothing has changed in the LTMA recently (well over 12 months). The procedures have stayed the same. Maybe you are flying at different times or the traffic levels are different... certainly no sector boundaries or procedures have changed and operations are the same as they were 12 months ago.

The reason you have multiple heading, level and frequency changes is due to the complexity of the LTMA. I know it's not ideal, especially in the first 10 or 15 minutes of flight, but it is necessary.

May I suggest a visit to Swanwick (TC and AC)... it might help you understand the interaction of all the airports (and a good 2 way dialogue between pilots/ATCOs is always to be encouraged - doesn't happen often enough nowadays).

To be very simplistic, we could make sectors larger, thus reducing some of the frequency changes... however, we would need to drastically reduce the traffic flow because there is a limit to how many aircraft you can control at once... directly related to complexity etc.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 04:32
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AnotherThing

If New York, during the outbound international rush is not busy, not complicated; then the question must be-why in the hell is European airspace that complicated? New York Approach controls 3 large hub airports, 6 or 7 large GA airports and numerous small fields, all with appoaches published and active. Europe is that complicated, by my observation, because controllers like it that way. The continuing impasse over creating a real EuroControl, that had maybe TWO ACCs for the "Continent" and several large "approach" controls like NY or SoCal has is silly. But that would put loads of ATCOs "on the street".

GF
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