Is Clear Air Turbulence related to gas/air bubbles?
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Is Clear Air Turbulence related to gas/air bubbles?
Was watching a very interesting program on the Science Channel for National Geographic. The program itself was about the mysteries of the Bermuda Triangle, in particular the disapperance of 5 Navy Avengers in 1945 and a 500ft freighter in 1963. The program mentioned that there is a very large methane gas field off the coast of Florida, so large in fact, that it could power all of the United States for 70 years. This methane field is helped out by what are called seeps or vents in the earth's crust that vent gas into the
ocean. They examined in quite remarkable detail how a large escape of gas at one time would create a bubble or bubbles that could swamp or sink a large ship and could explain the significance of "Rogue Waves". They did tests on a 900ft replica freighter and it was sunk in 3 seconds with a resulting wave of 120ft high. This could explain how ships have for years
simply vanished into "holes in the ocean" with no explanation. Now, there have been several incidents lately of Clear Air Turbulence and while the captains dont like to use the term, each has mentioned it was like the airplane hit a "hole in the air". The National Geographic show also did a test on the effects of the gas bubbles after release from the ocean, on a 737 replicating the flight path of the lost Navy flyers. The results were quite similiar to the descriptions of what happened to the planes involved in Clear Air Turbulence. My theory is this, they proved that Methane or Air is less dense than the surrounding atmosphere. Is it possible that Clear Air Turbulence is simply the release of a huge amount of gas from underneath the Earth and/or oceans??? It has to rise somewhere, but how high is a question. Wouldn't be great if the infa-red satellites could be used to scope the oceans for noticeable rises in temperature, which might signify a huge
release of gas or air from underground vents, which then could be passed onto ships and aircraft in the area to be aware of rogue waves and the possibility of CAT???? It seems to me there could be a lot of scientific investigation that could corrolate the build up of methane within the planet and its release and the dangers that occur from it.
ocean. They examined in quite remarkable detail how a large escape of gas at one time would create a bubble or bubbles that could swamp or sink a large ship and could explain the significance of "Rogue Waves". They did tests on a 900ft replica freighter and it was sunk in 3 seconds with a resulting wave of 120ft high. This could explain how ships have for years
simply vanished into "holes in the ocean" with no explanation. Now, there have been several incidents lately of Clear Air Turbulence and while the captains dont like to use the term, each has mentioned it was like the airplane hit a "hole in the air". The National Geographic show also did a test on the effects of the gas bubbles after release from the ocean, on a 737 replicating the flight path of the lost Navy flyers. The results were quite similiar to the descriptions of what happened to the planes involved in Clear Air Turbulence. My theory is this, they proved that Methane or Air is less dense than the surrounding atmosphere. Is it possible that Clear Air Turbulence is simply the release of a huge amount of gas from underneath the Earth and/or oceans??? It has to rise somewhere, but how high is a question. Wouldn't be great if the infa-red satellites could be used to scope the oceans for noticeable rises in temperature, which might signify a huge
release of gas or air from underground vents, which then could be passed onto ships and aircraft in the area to be aware of rogue waves and the possibility of CAT???? It seems to me there could be a lot of scientific investigation that could corrolate the build up of methane within the planet and its release and the dangers that occur from it.
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Most theories about the formation of Clear Air Turbulence relate to eddies along the edges of high altitude jet streams. Why some jet streams have sharply defined edges may not yet be clearly understood. This begs the question as to how the jet streams form intead of the air mass moving as a whole trying to move along pressure gradients and then deflected by that peculiar force called Corriolis. It's all very difficult to visualise as we cannot see jet streams because they never seem to be associated with cloud.
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Another Perspective
Just think for a moment about the physical properties of a Methane Gas cloud, The bubble or cloud will difuse at at a rate proportional to the ambient Temp and inversely proportional the the molecular mass of the gas, in addition to natural mixing by dissapation in air currents. As CH4 is lighter than air (at a given temperature) any release of the gas will rise and disapate . You can imagine that you would need an enormous release to reach the flight levels flown by modern aircraft.
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Sleeping Freightdog,
Clear air turbulence is a function of windshear, most commonly occuring near the jetstream, but potentially found at any altitude and occuring between currents of air moving in any direction (horizontally or vertically).
It can occur due to mountain waves or disturbed air from orographic lifting (mountains can cause severe turbulence that extends hundreds of miles downwind).
Clear air turbulence does not occur due to swamp gas or big bubbles of hot air, any more than television programs about Bigfoot make it more than a ridiculous myth.
Clear air turbulence is a function of windshear, most commonly occuring near the jetstream, but potentially found at any altitude and occuring between currents of air moving in any direction (horizontally or vertically).
It can occur due to mountain waves or disturbed air from orographic lifting (mountains can cause severe turbulence that extends hundreds of miles downwind).
Clear air turbulence does not occur due to swamp gas or big bubbles of hot air, any more than television programs about Bigfoot make it more than a ridiculous myth.
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any more than television programs about Bigfoot make it more than a ridiculous myth
Yeti
UFOs
Aliens
Men in Black
9/11 Conspiracy Theory...
to mention but a few.
FOK
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Og drop it, drop it, drop it! I have spent many vacations cruising through the 'Bermuda triangle' and piloting through it too. You are talking garbage SFD! Not once did I so much as sniff methane once (it is rather obvious you know), or see bubbles in the water, nor did I notice the ship sinking in 3 seconds. It is all nonsense. CAT is an atmospheric phenomenon. Methane outbursts don't exist- there would have been some thunderous spontaneous explosions (well there are actually, but they are usually related to Madras Curry- yum yum!). The 'Bermuda Triangle' is there (after all it has about 3 sides...I think- depending on where you want them), but it is not actually related to a higher degree of ship losses- it's all nonsense. The whole thing is utter garbage. Get yourself a lovely playful dog and take it out for lots of walks instead of wasting time on this nonsense. They really enjoy chasing sticks and rubber balls! Don't give them chocolate. You will have a far more productive time.
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Don't blind me with science! Well, you're right, but you can smell the burnt skin and feathers and soot when it blows up and removes your eyebrows!
What's happening to Pprune now? 911 conspiracists, Bermuda Triangle nuts...what next? 'Holistic' medicine? Jokers or mentally ill?
What's happening to Pprune now? 911 conspiracists, Bermuda Triangle nuts...what next? 'Holistic' medicine? Jokers or mentally ill?
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Rainboe,
Submarine methane release is a fact (UCSB Press Release: "Gas Escaping From Ocean Floor May Drive Global Warming "). Same for CO2 release from lakes (Lake Nyos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) but for a different cause.
The question in the context of this threas is not if it happens, but what could be the effect on ships and planes. Some evidence suggests that it can sink ships as the bubbles in the water reduce the desity of the water and alllow ships to ride lower, to the point that they are swamped.
For planes flying just above sea level these effects could have some result, but not in terms of boyancy, but in terms of preventing o2 from reaching the engines. That most certainly would be limited to a few 100 feet above sea level at most.
So, for jet transport the chance is about that of a snowballs you know where, but that does not mean the situation is totally absurd.
TME
Submarine methane release is a fact (UCSB Press Release: "Gas Escaping From Ocean Floor May Drive Global Warming "). Same for CO2 release from lakes (Lake Nyos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) but for a different cause.
The question in the context of this threas is not if it happens, but what could be the effect on ships and planes. Some evidence suggests that it can sink ships as the bubbles in the water reduce the desity of the water and alllow ships to ride lower, to the point that they are swamped.
For planes flying just above sea level these effects could have some result, but not in terms of boyancy, but in terms of preventing o2 from reaching the engines. That most certainly would be limited to a few 100 feet above sea level at most.
So, for jet transport the chance is about that of a snowballs you know where, but that does not mean the situation is totally absurd.
TME
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There have not been reports of the sea turning to bubbles and visual sightings of ships foundering, as there would be if it was a documented fact. It's theory only, and being a nasty suspicious individual, unless it is confirmed by eyeball and witnessed, I'm afraid it just don't exist! The Cameroon lake is volcanic CO2, not methane. It is little more than pie in the sky I'm afraid. At this stage of scientific development, if it existed, we'd have proof by now. It serves no more function now than to get these people wearing metal foil skull caps.
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Rainboe,
I have had with your holier than thou attitude. God forbid anyone have
a different point of view than yourself.
There is indeed footage of the sea turning to bubbles, 1981 off the
North Sea that nearly sunk a oil well platform. If you will care to research
the prothesis, you will find that indeed an sudden release of air bubbles can
indeed cause a ship to be swamped, in fact there is a video of an Australian
war ship being sunk by an explosion well underneath of a torpedo that caused a massive air bubble to arise. This broke the ship in half causing it
to explode and sink rapidly. Perhaps you need to open your mind to a scientific approach instead a closed minded Rainboe approach.
It is a fact there are numerous gas vents on the ocean floor, they can indeed release a huge amount of gas or air at one time, and if a ship happens to be in the area, it can cause the ship to break in half or be swamped. The gas, air cloud does indeed rise, my question was if it was a huge enough cloud, could it pose a "whole in the air" similar to as described as when hitting
CAT.
I have had with your holier than thou attitude. God forbid anyone have
a different point of view than yourself.
There is indeed footage of the sea turning to bubbles, 1981 off the
North Sea that nearly sunk a oil well platform. If you will care to research
the prothesis, you will find that indeed an sudden release of air bubbles can
indeed cause a ship to be swamped, in fact there is a video of an Australian
war ship being sunk by an explosion well underneath of a torpedo that caused a massive air bubble to arise. This broke the ship in half causing it
to explode and sink rapidly. Perhaps you need to open your mind to a scientific approach instead a closed minded Rainboe approach.
It is a fact there are numerous gas vents on the ocean floor, they can indeed release a huge amount of gas or air at one time, and if a ship happens to be in the area, it can cause the ship to break in half or be swamped. The gas, air cloud does indeed rise, my question was if it was a huge enough cloud, could it pose a "whole in the air" similar to as described as when hitting
CAT.
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Look guys, if CAT was caused by methane 'bubbles' in the atmosphere, then there would be so much methane up thar that the ozone layer would be history and we would all be coughing and spluttering. CAT comes from airflow. Aeroplanes would be registering higher exhaust temperatures if they ran into one of these 'methane clouds', the burning characteristics of the engines would change. It is a hypothesis that does not work out.
Oil platforms are placed over oil and gas fields and pricking the surface. Not surprisingly they might get more than they bargained for. But if all the 'proof' you can come up with is this, then sorry, but it doesn't happen. Theoretically a ship can sink if the SG of the water it's in is reduced by numerous gas bubbles, but watch my lips, it does not happen! Because you theorise it may does not mean it does. Bringing up bad examples (Cameroon) does not provide 'proof'. Spend your energies on something constructive! This is totally unproven nonsense.
Oil platforms are placed over oil and gas fields and pricking the surface. Not surprisingly they might get more than they bargained for. But if all the 'proof' you can come up with is this, then sorry, but it doesn't happen. Theoretically a ship can sink if the SG of the water it's in is reduced by numerous gas bubbles, but watch my lips, it does not happen! Because you theorise it may does not mean it does. Bringing up bad examples (Cameroon) does not provide 'proof'. Spend your energies on something constructive! This is totally unproven nonsense.
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Try this:
News in Science - Monster methane sinks ships - 30/11/2000
and this:
Swallowing ships - 29 November 2000 - New Scientist
and this:
Whitley Strieber's Unknown Country
and this:
Discovery Channel :: Giant Bubbles Could Sink Ships
and this:
New Area of Exploration Surfaces From the Santa Barbara Channel - Los Angeles Times
and this:
Bermuda Triangle
and btw, I never mentioned Cameroon that was another poster.
News in Science - Monster methane sinks ships - 30/11/2000
and this:
Swallowing ships - 29 November 2000 - New Scientist
and this:
Whitley Strieber's Unknown Country
and this:
Discovery Channel :: Giant Bubbles Could Sink Ships
and this:
New Area of Exploration Surfaces From the Santa Barbara Channel - Los Angeles Times
and this:
Bermuda Triangle
and btw, I never mentioned Cameroon that was another poster.
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Agree with Rainboe here, the hypothesis is complete tripe.
If there were to be a huge "cloud" of Methane that an aircraft were to fly through, I'm sure the engines would react in a none too pleasant manner, being forced to ingest a highly flammable gas.....
If there were to be a huge "cloud" of Methane that an aircraft were to fly through, I'm sure the engines would react in a none too pleasant manner, being forced to ingest a highly flammable gas.....
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FACT that both drilling and production platforms have been destroyed by massive undersea gas release
I live near the Gippsland Lakes, which are particularly shallow in some areas, and from time to time islands of mud suddenly appear overnight. But it's not an explosive event, just a slow raising of the lake bed. Caused by gas formations. It is an area of oil, gas and coal production.
Whilst not denying the possibility of methane bubbles, the websites quoted are hardly awe inspiring scientific facts....
One is an article about an article published in the other (that itself offered no concrete proof) and another has this exceptionally stirring quote,
Hmmmm.
One is an article about an article published in the other (that itself offered no concrete proof) and another has this exceptionally stirring quote,
This explains why ships are lost in the Bermuda Triangle, but it doesn't explain why planes are lost there as well. According to the Navy, the Bermuda Triangle is one of two places on earth where a magnetic compass points to true north instead of magnetic north. A navigator who didn't compensate for that "could find himself far off course and in deep trouble," according to the Navy website.
