Would you abort after V1?
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I agree, the inherent differences with (light) corporate biz jets and the airline world make this discussion meaningless. The two are always going to disagree.
In a light twin (seneca) I'd stop if I was still on the runway (there is no V1), plus at 80kts or there abouts chances are you'd stop on the runway or have a very low speed over-run. But in an airliner, above V1, I'm going, unless a catastrophic failure prevents me getting airborne.
In a light twin (seneca) I'd stop if I was still on the runway (there is no V1), plus at 80kts or there abouts chances are you'd stop on the runway or have a very low speed over-run. But in an airliner, above V1, I'm going, unless a catastrophic failure prevents me getting airborne.
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Foils. I have only performed this on rear engine business jets and 737NG and before anyone out there in wallyworld thinks….. ONLY EVER IN THE SIM!
Program is as follows, day cavok nil wind……. Lovely they think
Medium weight, efato 1 V1+2, eng vibe 2 V1+5 (Above 4 on the NG)….. (bastard)
Ok this is where it happens, reduce power lever = reduced vibes.
Remembering that we are now between V1 & V2 not really accelerating and nowhere near VFTO kind of waffelling and probably not yet at Vref (1.3).
737NG 70T F15 V2= 136 Vref= 152 (Vs 116)
If the punter can get a pitch angle about a6 and then baby it around the circuit with min power then they are set if they don’t overbank it while trying to tighten the circuit.
It really is a thinking exercise.
First is, is this puppy gonna fly (Y/N) Y- milk it, N- Close both leavers land straight ahead, do best you can with remaining real estate.
CANCELL THE DARN BELL
Second is now flying, Vibes V’s Thrust, Pitch V’s Speed, (Biggest Killer)
Third is where is Vref??? Can you fly below Vref? Of course you can why not 1.15 Vs? limit your turn and bank angle (Second biggest killer)
Its not an ego trip thing, as the line swine know that it can be dome in the sim, everyone thinks that they can do it. The trick is the pitch angle and being happy to live below Vref with no power adjustment.
On the NG 78% thrust comes from the fan, 22% core, do you want any residual thrust? Of course you do on both sides! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Burn baby burn, you want every ounce you can get, hence the don’t touch anything below 1500. In this circumstance you firewall it and leave it to burn.
The guys from a hands on background generally do well, the straight from school to 737 type are hopelessly lost while being addicted to VNav. Most don’t realize that you can fly safely below Vref. Or even VMCA in some of Canada's finest(F40 in a TwinOtter) I dont reccomend it though.
As Dirty Harry said once “A GOOD MAN KNOWS HIS LIMITATIONS” and that holds true here, If you know that you can fly outside the “Numbers” in a “Non Normal” that has no QRH reference then you know the machine and you leave that trick in the bag for when you are gonna need it (Hopefully never).
If you cant tell already, I too am a hands and feet man and to this day stuff I learnt way back when keeps me ahead of the pack, which is sadly something a lot of the newer folk will never learn.
Program is as follows, day cavok nil wind……. Lovely they think
Medium weight, efato 1 V1+2, eng vibe 2 V1+5 (Above 4 on the NG)….. (bastard)
Ok this is where it happens, reduce power lever = reduced vibes.
Remembering that we are now between V1 & V2 not really accelerating and nowhere near VFTO kind of waffelling and probably not yet at Vref (1.3).
737NG 70T F15 V2= 136 Vref= 152 (Vs 116)
If the punter can get a pitch angle about a6 and then baby it around the circuit with min power then they are set if they don’t overbank it while trying to tighten the circuit.
It really is a thinking exercise.
First is, is this puppy gonna fly (Y/N) Y- milk it, N- Close both leavers land straight ahead, do best you can with remaining real estate.
CANCELL THE DARN BELL
Second is now flying, Vibes V’s Thrust, Pitch V’s Speed, (Biggest Killer)
Third is where is Vref??? Can you fly below Vref? Of course you can why not 1.15 Vs? limit your turn and bank angle (Second biggest killer)
Its not an ego trip thing, as the line swine know that it can be dome in the sim, everyone thinks that they can do it. The trick is the pitch angle and being happy to live below Vref with no power adjustment.
On the NG 78% thrust comes from the fan, 22% core, do you want any residual thrust? Of course you do on both sides! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Burn baby burn, you want every ounce you can get, hence the don’t touch anything below 1500. In this circumstance you firewall it and leave it to burn.
The guys from a hands on background generally do well, the straight from school to 737 type are hopelessly lost while being addicted to VNav. Most don’t realize that you can fly safely below Vref. Or even VMCA in some of Canada's finest(F40 in a TwinOtter) I dont reccomend it though.
As Dirty Harry said once “A GOOD MAN KNOWS HIS LIMITATIONS” and that holds true here, If you know that you can fly outside the “Numbers” in a “Non Normal” that has no QRH reference then you know the machine and you leave that trick in the bag for when you are gonna need it (Hopefully never).
If you cant tell already, I too am a hands and feet man and to this day stuff I learnt way back when keeps me ahead of the pack, which is sadly something a lot of the newer folk will never learn.
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Alright I give up..
Ok, I admit, I've been school, educated, so this is what I am going to do..
From now on if I can get away with it, all my take offs will be derated, I want to burn up as much runway as possible to get off the ground, because that will save my engines..
Not withstanding the horror in my boss and his wife's eyes as I slowly burn up 8000 ft to rotate off of a 9000 ft field, they get to enjoy flying right over the fence, buzzing the houses and mowing the trees with my landing gear on every climbout..ahh nothing like seeing the license plates of cars on take off as fly over someone's driveway...
uh oh....
But we have a problem on this flight...you see when I hit V1, I hit a flock of birds, a puddle of water, bad fuel, ect is starting to flame out my #1 engine, the other one I am not sure...no fire lights...
But I continue because I have the 'go mentality' confident I can bring up the remaining good engine, but it's just not coming up......but the fence is...so I horse it off the ground, and with my last good engine sputtering away, I try to pull up and miss the pre school I am about to hit, the shaker activates...
That's when I look back at the boss and his wife and say..
'I am really sorry, but I tried to save you some money on engine overhauls...this is how the airline guys do it'
'Feel Better?"
I am comforted by the calm, serene look of acceptance in thier eyes knowing that as we fly to the fiery crash, I flew like an airline pilot....
From now on if I can get away with it, all my take offs will be derated, I want to burn up as much runway as possible to get off the ground, because that will save my engines..
Not withstanding the horror in my boss and his wife's eyes as I slowly burn up 8000 ft to rotate off of a 9000 ft field, they get to enjoy flying right over the fence, buzzing the houses and mowing the trees with my landing gear on every climbout..ahh nothing like seeing the license plates of cars on take off as fly over someone's driveway...
uh oh....
But we have a problem on this flight...you see when I hit V1, I hit a flock of birds, a puddle of water, bad fuel, ect is starting to flame out my #1 engine, the other one I am not sure...no fire lights...
But I continue because I have the 'go mentality' confident I can bring up the remaining good engine, but it's just not coming up......but the fence is...so I horse it off the ground, and with my last good engine sputtering away, I try to pull up and miss the pre school I am about to hit, the shaker activates...
That's when I look back at the boss and his wife and say..
'I am really sorry, but I tried to save you some money on engine overhauls...this is how the airline guys do it'
'Feel Better?"
I am comforted by the calm, serene look of acceptance in thier eyes knowing that as we fly to the fiery crash, I flew like an airline pilot....
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SNSGuppy
You may be from the old school and have a wealth of experience of flying but I know of at least five pilots flying airlines as FOs right seat in 737s and A319s who have gone straight through flight school, done the minimum in twins to get their IR.They then went through a selection process self financed type ratings or were sponsored to type ratings and are now flying as FOs with a total of 500 odd hours.
You want to be rude and condescending and arrogant to me fine I wont loose any sleep over it.
And no NOWADAYS the route to airline pilot is not the route you took.
I suggest you are out of touch with the route to right seat in a 737/A319 Nowadays?
Pace
You may be from the old school and have a wealth of experience of flying but I know of at least five pilots flying airlines as FOs right seat in 737s and A319s who have gone straight through flight school, done the minimum in twins to get their IR.They then went through a selection process self financed type ratings or were sponsored to type ratings and are now flying as FOs with a total of 500 odd hours.
You want to be rude and condescending and arrogant to me fine I wont loose any sleep over it.
And no NOWADAYS the route to airline pilot is not the route you took.
I suggest you are out of touch with the route to right seat in a 737/A319 Nowadays?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th May 2008 at 19:52.
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Ok, Hog Driver
Follow. But everything you describe is something a qualified pilot would do instinctively, without having done it on Sim. Nor would he need have done it prior to have success in the real world. V2+4, V1+1, you get what you're given, it's flyable, demonstrably. You go. Why wouldn't 70% of Sim pilots get it? Troubling it's not 100%. If after V1 nothing you did worked,(after launch, as you must), you're a soon to land Truck slowing down to Park. The ultimate outcome is a result beyond your ability to decide and effect Flight. What if 2 starts shedding parts, but is still making thrust? It doesn't matter, in real life, there are times you can't think or perform your way out of destiny. It is a Human endeavour, and subject to the slings, arrows and Fate of our realm. My first flight instructor landed his Baron on a Dept. Store many years ago, the lawsuits are still not resolved.
It wasn't his Fault, it was his responsibility.
It wasn't his Fault, it was his responsibility.
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This is a numbers game, like any other. The probability is that taking off after v1 with engine problems will statistically leave you with the highest chance of getting back on the ground safely. Of course SOPs cannot account for every combination of problems, yes, there may be the odd example of not following the SOP saving someones skin, it would be true to say that in those few seconds after v1 (where you might not be able to tell how bad the problem is) you shouldn't be second guessing the applicability of V1.
If there were to be a paradigm shift in the way pilots were trained ("V1 is a guide, however if you have a hunch you're in trouble, STOP") would this not results in a greater instance of runway overruns? A greater number of accidents? Overruns, incidentally, seem to be painted by SSG as an almost safe incident with the result being only structural damage and a few pax injuries. I was under the impression that fields/roads/housing estates present at the end of runways may result in rupturing of fuel tanks? Not very survivable.
If there were to be a paradigm shift in the way pilots were trained ("V1 is a guide, however if you have a hunch you're in trouble, STOP") would this not results in a greater instance of runway overruns? A greater number of accidents? Overruns, incidentally, seem to be painted by SSG as an almost safe incident with the result being only structural damage and a few pax injuries. I was under the impression that fields/roads/housing estates present at the end of runways may result in rupturing of fuel tanks? Not very survivable.
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ssg, really mate, how do you get out of bed in the morning? The shower head might fall off and knock you out. Or, is it even safe to sleep at night, you never know what might happen.
Seriously though, you seem to have a very vivid imagination, only you haven't considered the flip side, what if your brakes fail, the thrust leavers stick open, your brakes catch fire and ignite the fuel that you didn't know was leaking. All this happened after V1. Wouldn't you rather get airborne, and have the whole runway to stop in (by which time someone will have told you that you're leaking fuel, so you'll make an informed decision of what to do upon landing)?
Seriously though, you seem to have a very vivid imagination, only you haven't considered the flip side, what if your brakes fail, the thrust leavers stick open, your brakes catch fire and ignite the fuel that you didn't know was leaking. All this happened after V1. Wouldn't you rather get airborne, and have the whole runway to stop in (by which time someone will have told you that you're leaking fuel, so you'll make an informed decision of what to do upon landing)?
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Answer for SSG
B737800FPPM 1.2.4
Sea Level, ISA+10 (25C)
Flap 5
7000ft
MTOW 77T
Speeds 152 154 160
Answer is Yep it will use 7000ft as MGTOW is 79T so we are weight limited
Foils.... I take it that you are your age as posted and that you have some experience. What comes as second nature to us experienced gents. Is far from the calibre of some of the newer members of the club.
One my drinking buddies here is the Head of Training Boeing Fleet for a major European carrier his opinion is that in the past decade a the quality of candidate has dropped substantially, many factors include self funding min hour type ratings and at one stage desperate shortages that saw anyone with a CPL IR and a heart beat making it into some carriers.
These guys have started in Joe Blow airlines where SOPs were rare, DEC’s were taken where they could get them and there was very little corporate knowledge passed on.
Now these guys are making it to the LHS and believe me, a lot make MINIMUM standard or competency, constantly.
Nuff said
Here's what I want to know...does a 737 at Sea level, max weight, burn up 7000 feet of runway using max power?
Sea Level, ISA+10 (25C)
Flap 5
7000ft
MTOW 77T
Speeds 152 154 160
Answer is Yep it will use 7000ft as MGTOW is 79T so we are weight limited
Foils.... I take it that you are your age as posted and that you have some experience. What comes as second nature to us experienced gents. Is far from the calibre of some of the newer members of the club.
One my drinking buddies here is the Head of Training Boeing Fleet for a major European carrier his opinion is that in the past decade a the quality of candidate has dropped substantially, many factors include self funding min hour type ratings and at one stage desperate shortages that saw anyone with a CPL IR and a heart beat making it into some carriers.
These guys have started in Joe Blow airlines where SOPs were rare, DEC’s were taken where they could get them and there was very little corporate knowledge passed on.
Now these guys are making it to the LHS and believe me, a lot make MINIMUM standard or competency, constantly.
Nuff said
Last edited by international hog driver; 18th May 2008 at 19:53.
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Good Job Pace...
Go get 'em Pace... This hilarious...
Hog I have numbers here on the new 737 just delivered to GOL, operates out of a 4200 ft field in Rio.. Your using Flex numbers....
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/new...60729a_nr.html
Hog I have numbers here on the new 737 just delivered to GOL, operates out of a 4200 ft field in Rio.. Your using Flex numbers....
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/new...60729a_nr.html
Last edited by ssg; 18th May 2008 at 19:50.
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V1 is calculated for a single engine failure on a 4 engine aircraft. So if we are at V1 and have a dual flame out one side (bird strike, one engine takes the other out, or what ever), ABORT, we are below VMCG-2 (2 engine out same side). No chance in hell to get airborne and around again.
Min V1 on A343 is around 129kts, and with two engine out same side is around 157kts so STOP, and take what comes ahead rather than to continue rolling inverted and going through the perimeter fence upside down.
Min V1 on A343 is around 129kts, and with two engine out same side is around 157kts so STOP, and take what comes ahead rather than to continue rolling inverted and going through the perimeter fence upside down.
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SSG you are probably right however that would be an NG fitted with the Short Field Performance package, and your numbers are ground roll
Your link says full payload..... yeah but no range for the Sao Paulo-Rio De Janeiro sector which is 220NM! I think i did a circuit bigger than that once!
Beer napkin figures would give a 65T MGTOW so it seems doable but you are not going very far and its no where near the 79T max we have.
Mine are factored as per JAR ops as I dont have the ground roll figures at home.
Either way it will basically do it.
Your link says full payload..... yeah but no range for the Sao Paulo-Rio De Janeiro sector which is 220NM! I think i did a circuit bigger than that once!
Beer napkin figures would give a 65T MGTOW so it seems doable but you are not going very far and its no where near the 79T max we have.
Mine are factored as per JAR ops as I dont have the ground roll figures at home.
Either way it will basically do it.
Last edited by international hog driver; 18th May 2008 at 20:28.
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I use these two videos with my students to help explain the go / no go decision.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raCnJgDnijw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhVVAI8drVo
Will help explain the timing etc involved in an RTO close to V1 and the possible consequences of an RTO on or after V1 - regardless of the distance available.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raCnJgDnijw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhVVAI8drVo
Will help explain the timing etc involved in an RTO close to V1 and the possible consequences of an RTO on or after V1 - regardless of the distance available.
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>Will help explain the timing etc involved in an RTO close to V1 and the possible consequences of an RTO on or after V1 - regardless of the distance available.<
Farrel
Excellent videos but I am sure he referred to "minimal runways" not regardless of distance available?
Lets be stupid and imagine a specially constructed 10 mile runway it would make the V1 debate look rather stupid.
Check but I am sure they referred to minimal runway/ but point taken
Pace
Farrel
Excellent videos but I am sure he referred to "minimal runways" not regardless of distance available?
Lets be stupid and imagine a specially constructed 10 mile runway it would make the V1 debate look rather stupid.
Check but I am sure they referred to minimal runway/ but point taken
Pace
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OK, Pace, since I can no longer see ssg's posts, I'll bite. V1 is <=Vr - agreed? So, on your 10mile runway, engine fire - you land back on? Why on earth continue on fire?
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"Lets be stupid and imagine a specially constructed 10 mile runway it would make the V1 debate look rather stupid."
No, it wouldn't.
For example:
Blowing all the tyres on one bogey is going to cause more than a casual float to the side at 130+ kts. You could end up with a loss of control on the ground.
Tyre debris flying around. Hot brakes - fire.
Unnecessary damage to tyres, brakes, stress on the airframe...
You are setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecessary problems and risks performing an RTO after V1 and unless you are not confident of your aircrafts ability to fly, then you are far better off to go, get lighter and spend some time on the problem.
No, it wouldn't.
For example:
Blowing all the tyres on one bogey is going to cause more than a casual float to the side at 130+ kts. You could end up with a loss of control on the ground.
Tyre debris flying around. Hot brakes - fire.
Unnecessary damage to tyres, brakes, stress on the airframe...
You are setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecessary problems and risks performing an RTO after V1 and unless you are not confident of your aircrafts ability to fly, then you are far better off to go, get lighter and spend some time on the problem.
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>Blowing all the tyres on one bogey is going to cause more than a casual float to the side at 130+ kts. You could end up with a loss of control on the ground.<
So in that situation would you rather stop on the ground or land with all blown tyres? You can hardly go into a holding pattern and blow them all up again :-)
This whole thread is becoming an ego trip fact is I lost a very experienced 20000 hr pilot friend and 3 others in my time so there for the grace of God go I or any of us.
There are tragic accidents that occur to all of us, nothing is set in stone, armchair pilots or otherwise.
At the end of the day you make a decision if its wrong you pay if its right you get away to fight another day.
Pace
So in that situation would you rather stop on the ground or land with all blown tyres? You can hardly go into a holding pattern and blow them all up again :-)
This whole thread is becoming an ego trip fact is I lost a very experienced 20000 hr pilot friend and 3 others in my time so there for the grace of God go I or any of us.
There are tragic accidents that occur to all of us, nothing is set in stone, armchair pilots or otherwise.
At the end of the day you make a decision if its wrong you pay if its right you get away to fight another day.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th May 2008 at 22:50.
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Question, but if you do have that 10 mile runway and take some more space (than usual, and because this time you have it) to slow down the airplane. Will you still cause damage to the plane.
In other words, could you just be aggresive on the reversers (till 60kt) and not that hard on the brakes (assuming that you have plenty of space to slow down) ?
In other words, could you just be aggresive on the reversers (till 60kt) and not that hard on the brakes (assuming that you have plenty of space to slow down) ?
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In a light twin (seneca) I'd stop if I was still on the runway (there is no V1), plus at 80kts or there abouts chances are you'd stop on the runway or have a very low speed over-run. But in an airliner, above V1, I'm going, unless a catastrophic failure prevents me getting airborne.
In other words, could you just be aggresive on the reversers (till 60kt) and not that hard on the brakes (assuming that you have plenty of space to slow down) ?
The general theory behind autobrakes; excepting maximum settings, reverse thrust doesn't decrease the stopping distance, but reduces the amount of braking required, making for cooler brakes Rejected takeoff autobrakes (RTO brakes) tend to deliver full braking pressure such that reverse is additive to the stopping distance. In general reversers aren't so much for stopping as reducing the thermal energy absorbed by the brakes.
The general theory behind autobrakes; excepting maximum settings, reverse thrust doesn't decrease the stopping distance, but reduces the amount of braking required, making for cooler brakes Rejected takeoff autobrakes (RTO brakes) tend to deliver full braking pressure such that reverse is additive to the stopping distance. In general reversers aren't so much for stopping as reducing the thermal energy absorbed by the brakes.
And no NOWADAYS the route to airline pilot is not the route you took.
I suggest you are out of touch with the route to right seat in a 737/A319 Nowadays?
I suggest you are out of touch with the route to right seat in a 737/A319 Nowadays?
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>No, as I said before you make far too many assumptions in ignorance. I didn't tell you what I do for a living. I'm certainly not out of touch with the path to the right or left seat of an airliner these days. You, however, not being there yourself, certainly are. Think about it. <
If they are assumptions in ignorance then I suggest you remove that ignorance by feeding in some information about what you do for a living??
It was you who blew your own trumpet about your vast experience and the path to airline flying and the huge experience of those who go there.
Most of us know that is not the case nowadays
It was you who decided to be rude and arrogant and make your own assumptions about myself.
Suggest you change your name to Mr EGO instead of hiding behind a cloak of mystery and know all when it suits you!
Pace
If they are assumptions in ignorance then I suggest you remove that ignorance by feeding in some information about what you do for a living??
It was you who blew your own trumpet about your vast experience and the path to airline flying and the huge experience of those who go there.
Most of us know that is not the case nowadays
It was you who decided to be rude and arrogant and make your own assumptions about myself.
Suggest you change your name to Mr EGO instead of hiding behind a cloak of mystery and know all when it suits you!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th May 2008 at 23:30.