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Airbus vs Boeing

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Airbus vs Boeing

Old 12th May 2008, 12:59
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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There hasn't been an Airbus v. Boeing debate here in a long time. At least this one is pretty civil. Nice work gentlemen.
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Old 12th May 2008, 23:18
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I was only pointing out to those that think they are hand "flying" the Airbus that they are NOT flying it at all.

The 777 Autopilot is certified to land in 38 kts, apart from LWMO. A nice thing to have when tired after a long flight. And it does a damn good job too.

The Eicas on the 777 works like a dream, all the time.
The Ecam on the Bus is a nightmare: 1/ Ecam actions 2/ check the paper QRH 3/ check the FCOMs.
Airbus ECAM actions can be wrong and not fixed by software updates for a long time. Makes it messy for the crew, and possible to screw up.
An example is a KA A320 that had a flap problem and the crew followed the Ecam actions, trouble was they were not right and the FBW software gave them hell until they pulled out the bulletins. They nearly came to grief that day. ( back at Kai tak in about 1996 )

I've never been in a good landing in an Airbus, especially the 340, it has 4 distinct touchdowns and only 1 of them are smooth!! ( the first touchdown as the rear wheels meet the runway, the gear tilt screws the rest )

The Airbus rattles and squeeks as you taxi along, all the overhead lockers look like they are about to rip off.

Several heavy landings done, mostly by an inexperienced F/O. The Captain doesn't know what inputs the F/O is doing and if he tries to use "sidestick priority" below 50' he could cancel out the input from the F/O and quite possibly make it a lot worse. Quite a few landing gear have needed changing on a Bus, NEVER on a Boeing.

Several accidental go- arounds below 100' when the PF moves the Thrust levers out of the "detent" to give it a burst of power to stop the speed decay or sink rate, he mistakingly puts it back into the detent and then gets TOGA. Around we go...............yee haaaa.........oops.
This can only happen below 100'

It's slow, but at least it's quiet in the cockpit( a good point )

Airbus: built by a dummy to be flown by a genious
Boeing: built by a genious to be flown by dummies.
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Old 12th May 2008, 23:44
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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oh and did I mention the complicated fuel system on the Bus? Inner tanks, outer tanks, split tanks. The 346 has 18 fuel pump switches on the overhead panel for goodness sake!!

We had a 330 divert into Darwin with a medical problem a while ago. The crew didn't transfer the fuel from the outer tanks to the inner before landing...........so what happened? The outboard wings iced up in the humid Darwin air due to cold fuel !! 12 hour tech delay waiting for the fuel temp to rise and melt the ice.
( crew ran out of hours to continue )

the crew can't be blamed, they were not to know, they do now.
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Old 12th May 2008, 23:46
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting comments, GE90115BL2, thanks.
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Old 13th May 2008, 06:16
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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When I converted to the 737 CL and NG, I was told by my instructor that Boeing build aircraft to be flown hard by Ham fisted Texans, Airbus build aircraft to be flown gently by French pilots.

I have no idea what the ideal landing in a Airbus is like, but on the 73 it is a positive one. Mine are somtimes still hard and I have not broke anything yet.
The 73 is a bit like a old Mercedes S class, full of over engineering
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Old 13th May 2008, 12:26
  #86 (permalink)  

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About handflying and bias !

What I still -after 20 years ! -find amusing is all the argument about flying a Boeing like a Cessna 152.
That was probably true up to the DC-4 era and then became the greatest macho joke in pilot circles : Thinking that one has a direct action on the flight controls is, in my very humble opinion, either myopic or intellectually dishonest.
The last semi-modern cable-and-rods airplane I flew last was the Nord 262 and- along with the DC-4 - the controls seemed set in concrete anywhere above 170 kt indicated.
So the hydraulic power was put in airplanes, in its different forms so, to be perfectly honest, one could not move these controls on virile muscles alone...
Then came the jet and its inherent higher speed and then they gave us mach trims (transparent), yaw dampers (also very transparent), CWS (called here A/P-transparent flying) which is the normal way of operating a DC-10...And I am not even talking about changes in flight control configuration with speed (low / high speed ailerons, spoilers....) that the pilot does not manage.
So... are you still having a direct control of your flight ?
Don't you think that the engineers have given you systems that make believe that nothing had changed and your beloved DC-3 is still alive ?

And why is it that the only acceptable way of flying an aeroplane is still the 1910 way (that's as close to a century that one can get !)* ?
Does having to "manually" trim the airplane give you an orgasmic trip ?
You can say what you want about the 'Bus flight controls and I would even agree with you that some people still object to the un-linked side-sticks, but the fact is that on any FBW Airbus, one can achieve a piloting precision you've only dreamed about (it still thrills me to watch a 600 hour F/O flying a "manual" VNAV approach to Nice and the airplane feels like on steel rails ).

Quote : "Several accidental go- arounds below 100' when the PF moves the Thrust levers out of the "detent" to give it a burst of power to stop the speed decay or sink rate, he mistakingly puts it back into the detent and then gets TOGA."

That's just impossible. To go into TOGA, you need to be in the TOGA detent, equivalent to "firewalling" the thottles...

Quote : "The Ecam on the Bus is a nightmare: 1/ Ecam actions 2/ check the paper QRH 3/ check the FCOMs.
"
Wrong : the procedure is 1/Check QRH and the Tech document for possible amendments, 2/ ECAM actions...Checking the FCOM is to allow you, if you have the time, to make a decision on whether your destination can repair the fault or if you'd have some new limitations introduced by the failure (in my airline, you do that regardless of the type you're flying ; might help Operations...)...The QRH items you refer to are exactly 6 and every pilot I know is aware of them. The only important ones are about using the QRH for an Avionics Smoke and... for NAV: ADR (IR) FAULT : "in case of a total loss of an ADIRU (ADR + IR) first use the NAV : ADR 1(2)(3) FAULT then the NAV : IR 1(2)(3) FAULT checklist". I'm sure even a Boeing pilot can cope with that.

* to illustrate this point, here in France, lateral control is still called "gauchissement" which means "wing warping" !
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Old 13th May 2008, 13:43
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Lemurian

You are basically right. But you're taking the fun out of it!!

Still I'd like to come back to three issues:

- Sure enough we do not have to fly like in the 1910's. Technology evolves, "tempora mutantur et nos cum illis". But one thing is for sure, we have not yet been able to modify the program of the homo sapiens. And this species is simply better designed to function with ALL its senses than with its (mainly overrated) brain only. So taking away any feedback is taking away one of his senses and this means simply taking away a backup, or safety net, and at least here I hope all professionals will agree, there is a setback per human design.

- As I remeber the DC-9 was flown with a direct cable to the inverted aileron on the main one. Direct link with direct feel.

- Praise the Airbus as much as you want, but a circuit with a DC-10 and its FBW will forever be superior. Set the attitude, hold for 1 second and it flies spot on.

- Comparing EICAS and ECAM is a no brainer. Only guys who haven't flown both can pretend otherwise than discrediting ECAM. Just think: On the 330, with double engine failure: DO NOT USE ECAM! What a farce, it's exactly in such a incident when i would desperately need it!!!!

GMDS
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Old 13th May 2008, 14:07
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Lem: sorry but you didn't READ MY POST.

So I'll describe it to you again:
Quite a few new guys and girls have caused an unintentional go-around while doing a managed speed approach. They went OUT of the detent to give it a burst ( forward of the detent )and then they put the levers back INTO the Detent straight after. Below 100' THAT GIVES YOU TOGA. then it's too late................."going around"
( I think it's 100' the logic changes, not too sure of the exact ht )

It HAS happened quite a few times, only happens to you once though!! you learn from it.

So Airbus' electronic wonder jets have a really nifty ECAM fitted that has lots of checklists in it for you to follow, BUT you get the paper one out first because the ECAM may be wrong !! Brilliant system you have mate.

On the 777 we always follow the EICAS and do the electronic checklist. Granted there are times with multiple messages you have to filter a bit, but so what.


You can keep you plastique fantastique ( French accent used here!! )


The QRH items you refer to are exactly 6 and every pilot I know is aware of them. The only important ones are about using the QRH for an Avionics Smoke and... for NAV: ADR (IR) FAULT : "in case of a total loss of an ADIRU (ADR + IR) first use the NAV : ADR 1(2)(3) FAULT then the NAV : IR 1(2)(3) FAULT checklist". I'm sure even a Boeing pilot can cope with that.
You shouldn't have to "cope with that" buddy. If Airbus were half interested in product support and SAFETY they'd provide a software update to FIX the problem.

Another example is the RMI ( or RDMI you call it? ) On the CX A330's we couldn't use the thing for 5 years until Airbus finally fixed the bugs.

here is a copy of a current Notam:-

AIRBUS: VOR APPROACHES WITH A FINAL APPROACH TRACK BETWEEN
THE RADIALS 006 AND 016 MUST NOT BE USED ON A340-300 AIRCRAFT
WHICH DO NOT HAVE MODIFIED VOR RECEIVERS.

What is that about? It's been in the Notams for over 3 years

Nope sorry, Airbus are cheap cheap and cheap.

Last edited by GE90115BL2; 13th May 2008 at 14:29.
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Old 13th May 2008, 14:48
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Thinking that one has a direct action on the flight controls is, in my very humble opinion, either myopic or intellectually dishonest.
On the 777 when I move the control column it does move the corresponding control surface. It might resist a little if I try to do something the computer doesn't like but it still does WHAT I TELL IT TO. The FBW on the 777 does have envelope protection but it can be over ridden with force if you really want to.

I agree a sidestick would be better, but one with FEEDBACK from the other stick. So you know what the other chap is doing.

I believe the C17 Globemaster 3 has a fighter style stick just like the Bus, but it has feedback?
Maybe someone out there knows?

Just so you know, I'll happily fly on any Airbus. They are a very safe Aircraft. It's just that I think it's over-engineered a bit, and this makes it a little more complicated for the end user ( you )
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Old 13th May 2008, 16:42
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Flying a Boeing is still like flying an airplane.
Flying an Airbus is simply operating a computer.

I am a computer geek, and I spend so much time on my computers at home that my wife has to tell me to stop it frequently. I love the computer stuff.

But when I go to work, I want to fly an airplane, not a computer.

And when you consider that real airplanes do not even have electrical systems, you can see just how far from that Airbus has gone!!!

As to the Airbus's systems making it safer... consider that the safest thing on an airplane is a highly experienced stick-and-rudder pilot. That is what will keep out out of the trees. If I flew an Airbus for a few years, I think I'd need to go back through Private Pilot training again before climbing into a Cessna again. Not a good situation when basic flying skills erode. And if you don't think an Airbus erodes those skills, you are fooling yourselves. That is not a safe situation.
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Old 13th May 2008, 17:59
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Ge9011....

Quote - "So I'll describe it to you again:
Quite a few new guys and girls have caused an unintentional go-around while doing a managed speed approach. They went OUT of the detent to give it a burst ( forward of the detent )and then they put the levers back INTO the Detent straight after. Below 100' THAT GIVES YOU TOGA. then it's too late................."going around" "

I agree it gives you a boot load of unwanted thrust but not quite TOGA. If one was to move the thust levers above the CL detent, then but not as far as TOGA, then back into the CL detent, the AT will disconnect and give you full CLB power. No sign of TOGA or GA pitch commands, just a bucket load of unwanted power very close to Planet Earth....

Last edited by Tight Slot; 13th May 2008 at 19:20.
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Old 13th May 2008, 18:25
  #92 (permalink)  
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So I'll describe it to you again:
Quite a few new guys and girls have caused an unintentional go-around while doing a managed speed approach. They went OUT of the detent to give it a burst ( forward of the detent )and then they put the levers back INTO the Detent straight after. Below 100' THAT GIVES YOU TOGA. then it's too late................."going around"
Oh really, since when?

As to the Airbus's systems making it safer... consider that the safest thing on an airplane is a highly experienced stick-and-rudder pilot. That is what will keep out out of the trees. If I flew an Airbus for a few years, I think I'd need to go back through Private Pilot training again before climbing into a Cessna again. Not a good situation when basic flying skills erode. And if you don't think an Airbus erodes those skills, you are fooling yourselves. That is not a safe situation
IFR hand flying skills, yes by all means, stick and rudder, not quite, cadets can't handle cross winds, I get loads of practice.
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Old 13th May 2008, 18:57
  #93 (permalink)  

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Quote : "So I'll describe it to you again:
Quite a few new guys and girls have caused an unintentional go-around while doing a managed speed approach. They went OUT of the detent to give it a burst ( forward of the detent )and then they put the levers back INTO the Detent straight after. Below 100' THAT GIVES YOU TOGA. then it's too late................."going around"
"
And I say it a bit more clearly : That's BULLLLLSHIIIT !
You can't have a Go-around without the thrust levers in the TOGA detent.(Contrarily to a 744 under MDA)
Please check your sources again.

Quote : "...consider that the safest thing on an airplane is a highly experienced stick-and-rudder pilot..."
Yes, there were so many of them, they are all over mountain slopes. I prefer a good operator to a stick-and-rudder jock anytime (some of them have become very good operators, too).

Quote : "You can keep you plastique fantastique "
Are you refering to the 787 ?

Quote : "As I remember the DC-9 was flown with a direct cable to the inverted aileron on the main one. Direct link with direct feel.
"
I give you that one. That doesn't say that the 9 was not a cow.

Quote : "But when I go to work, I want to fly an airplane, not a computer.
"
As far as I know, all FBW airplanes are flown through a computer, and so will those which will follow. To make you believe that it's not there is what I call intellectual dishonesty and limiting the systems capability.

Quote : "If Airbus were half interested in product support and SAFETY they'd provide a software update to FIX the problem."
That's what they do, and these QRH items will disappear as they all do eventually. Like all that have been discovered through line operation or technical trials.

Quote : "Praise the Airbus as much as you want, but a circuit with a DC-10 and its FBW will forever be superior. Set the attitude, hold for 1 second and it flies spot on.
"
1/- I did not know the DC-10 was FBW.
2/- What you describe is what you get on a 'Bus : Leve the 'stick alone and the airplane will fly the latest path you have controlled. On a circling down to the minima, it's priceless.

Quote : "If one was to move the thust levers above the CL detent, then but not as far as TOGA, then back into the CL detent, the AT will disconnect and give you full CLB power. No sign of TOGA or GA pitch commands, just a bucket load of unwanted power very close to Planet Earth.... "
Thanks, Tight Slot. But...
Why would one do that? If anything, the approach speeds given by the FMGS are too conservative. In twelve years on the 'Bus and having worked for the Tech department, I have never heard of that situation. Either you are in A/THR mode and there is plenty of speed or you are on manual flying and to need in this case a thrust over CL is a bit of an overkill (or a wind gradient situation that's out of this world).

GMDS,
Yeah I know, I'm not fun, but this is about a silly war that a few would like to keep waging. To me, being just an airline pilot, I'd take anything my boss and his VP finance will get, and I'll adapt and I will even love it...dealing with its qualities, idiosyncracies and weaknesses. It's just the willy-waving macho trip that hit me. And I want to do the same !
Sorry.

Last edited by Lemurian; 14th May 2008 at 17:17.
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Old 13th May 2008, 19:32
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Originally Posted by check Airman
There hasn't been an Airbus v. Boeing debate here in a long time. At least this one is pretty civil. Nice work gentlemen.
Yesterday ..............
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Old 13th May 2008, 20:09
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Can't we all just get along?

I fly the Airbus and love it. I just hope I'm never forced off it and back into a Boeing! Not because I think Boeings are bad, just that I really get on with Airbus philosophy. I love the lack of trim, static throttles (the N1s, FMAs and engine noise tell me all I need to know!), sidestick, etc etc.

I respect Boeing and its pilots. And I hope they respect me and my Airbus colleagues too. Two very different ways of operating a flying machine.

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Old 14th May 2008, 00:48
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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You just don't understand the scenario I have painted do you.

So I'll try to draw it for you a third time.
Please read carefully.

1/ you are flying an approach using the autothrust ( known to be a bit slow in the Bus )
2/ the thrust levers are in the "detent"
3/ the speed gets a little slow below 100' and you decide that the autothrust sitting at lower power just ain't cutting the mustard.
4/ so you push the levers forward of the "detent" for maybe 1 second to give it a bit of thrust to stop the shit happeneing.
5/ The thrust then goes UP to commanded thrust lever position. right? yep
6/ you then mistakingly put it back into the "detent".
7/ but it's below 100' and the logic is different
8/ you now get the thrust commensurate with thrust lever postion. ie:
way way too much.
9/ which is not what you want is it. NOPE

What part of this is wrong?
Explain the Airbus autothrust logic to me then?

I know I'm a dumb Boeing Pilot, but maybe you could tell me what happens below 100' if you move forward out of detent and then back into detent? while the autothrust is engaged.

This is basically Pilot error I guess, but it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

So what about all the other things I commented on?
1/ Fuel system and wings iced up
2/ ECAM bs
3/ RMI faults and not being able to do VOR approaches

Cat got your tongue with those ones? How's about you try and refute them.

Last edited by GE90115BL2; 14th May 2008 at 01:01.
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Old 14th May 2008, 01:01
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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All true untill point 8) TOGA will not be commanded. As both levers are moved ahead of the CL detent, the AT will disconnect, not armed, or active - it will disconnect. therefore the levers will act as per the norm throttles in a Boeing. If the PF then puts them back into the CL gate, FULL CLM power is demanded (below 100' on the 330) AT is still disconnected.

Catches most Airbus drivers out at least once...
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Old 14th May 2008, 01:05
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yes thanks.
I was wrong, it doesn't go into TOGA as you say. please accept my humble apologies for the mistake.

But a lot of thrust results, which is not what you want.

I may have gotten the finer details wrong but the end result of a stuff up and go-around is correct.

It's happened to new Airbus command trainees in CX more than once, doesn't impress the checker.

regards from dumb Boeing pilot.

p.s I have ammended item 8 on the post above.
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Old 14th May 2008, 01:09
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No worries, glad to help. PS - our little secret ok - With 1000's more hours on the Boeings than the 'Bus, I'd still like to have the logic of the moving levers...
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Old 14th May 2008, 03:20
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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you know most Airbus Pilot's after a few drinks tell me they'd rather fly a Boeing.

Anyway we're all Pilot's and Flying is what we love. So I guess we should just get on with it hey?

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