LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

[Chris Scott]

A320 Crosswind techniques - by an old fart.

Quote from rubik101 [Today, 11:59]:
All this talk of direct law and squeezing crab off at the appropriate time amount to nothing more than a lot of hot air. As has been mentioned, it's an aircraft, fly the airplane and land it as well as you can in the circumstances.
Extreme weather, which it undoubtedly was, make for extreme situations and I, along with a few other enlightened souls on this thread, salute the pilot for his quick reactions and obvious skill in retrieving a critical situation.
[Unquote]

Hear, hear !
Have resisted the temptation to contribute to this thread so far. That said, I see a lot of constructive and sensible comment on previous postings, as well as the usual uninformed anti-Airbus hysteria. Not to mention the venom from those, mainly armchair, pilots who claim that they have never been caught-out by extreme weather – and never will...

My first impressions of the video are that the A/C was caught by at least 2 massive gusts, well beyond the capabilities of any current airliner to accommodate. Hamburg airfield is very exposed and, surrounded by trees, is subject to low-level windshear – and particularly on Rwy 23. Experience suggests that the wind would have been gusting – from the Rwy 15 threshold end – towards the first half of Rwy 23.

For what it's worth, I do have clear views on A320 crosswind techniques. And they are based more on the fact that it is a very conventional aeroplane aerodynamically, than on the intricacies of the FBW control laws. These opinions are based on 14 years' line-flying on type (1988 - 2001). My manuals remain un-amended since my retirement, so there may have been some minor changes to FBW control logic in the meantime.

To avoid duplication, you can see my opinion via the link below, specifically on Post#56. If you go there, there is also a link to the Iberia A320 Bilbao photos on Post#63, and my comments on Post#73.

Yes, the A320 programs zero roll-rate when the stick is central, but – if displaced by a gust – the pilot has to use the stick to roll the wings level again. Any logic that tries to compensate for yaw-induced roll, during de-crab, will not cater for any accompanying gust. Read on...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=308926&page=3

PS: Wader2, Remember, this event is defined as an "incident", not an "accident"!

[fireflybob]

Right Way Up, thanks for the correction! It's a while since I have flown the A320!

[Rananim]

rubik101,
I dont think the thread as a whole has been quick to judge.Kudos has been given to the pilot for his pitch/roll control in the recovery stage.

He was landing within the limits of the aircraft and de facto, his own as he is a LH Captain.

We dont know that.The video and the recorded met say something else.

I would just say this to some of you; were you flying last week in the extreme weather that obtained over large tracts of Europe? If not, then please refrain from posting an opinion about the qualifications of the pilot.

I find this very arrogant.In the States we get stuff like this much more frequently than you guys do.Asia has monsoons/typhoons.All pilots are qualified to comment and discuss this(the issue-not the pilot I agree).

All this talk of direct law and squeezing crab off at the appropriate time amount to nothing more than a lot of hot air. As has been mentioned, it's an aircraft, fly the airplane and land it as well as you can in the circumstances.

This is NOT the impression I get from reading this thread.I have never flown Airbus(thank Christ) but it appears that it is clearly notjust like any other aircraft in this situation and that using "conventional" techniques in a cross-wind will not have the same effect in an Airbus.This is not "hot air".Its important and the crux of the discussion.
The video doesnt lie.It clearly shows incorrect technique.Do the Airbus control laws below 50' enable the pilot to manipulate his aircraft to deal with such a crosswind?In other words was it man or machine?Some have said it did exactly what it was asked to do...well,I find that hard to believe.These are important issues and worth discussing dont you think?

NO,I disagree.This has been a good thread and raised many issues like:
-choice of rwy..left vs right x-wind..vortices from buildings influencing pilots decision in rwy choice etc
-flap setting for gusts
- large track adjustment at threshold=continue OR GA
-x-wind limitations..include gusts(yes!)..demonstrated(test pilot)= HARD limitation
-calculation of x-wind component..precise calculation by chart vs guess-estimate..
-airbus vs conventional aircraft x-wind techniques/capabilities(the kernel of the discussion)
-HF..get it down now somehow vs the pain of diversion

Important stuff and what this site needs more of..............

[The Flying Pram]

The main problem its that i dont know how to save clips from Youtube to my Disk...i really hope someone had done that...

If you use Firefox as your browser (you mean you don't already?) there are "Add Ons" available to do this. I use "Download Helper". The resulting files are normally .flv format which requires something like VLC media player to play them. These are all free open source programmes. I've just discovered that VLC has an inbuilt "screen shot capture" facility as well - Ctrl+Alt+S which is handy to take still frames out.

[Che Guevara]

Airbus Crosswind Landing Technique

Hello all,

There seems to some confusion about x-wind landings on the Airbus FBW aircraft etc.
If anyone is interested, the Airbus Safety Library on their website has an excellent set of briefing notes, in particular their Crosswind Landing Technique document.
The following URL should take you to the correct place, then simply go to Landing Techniques and Voila...

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/ethics/safety_lib/

Hopefully this will clear up some of the misconceptions etc.

[Dream Land]

It appeared to be well handled, skillfully recovered and flown off safely.

Did you watch the same video as I did, that approach was incredibly bad, tried to save it and screwed that up too.

[Ali Qadoo]

Probably setting myself up for a sound kicking, only ever having flown military single- and twin-jets, but to me it seems that in pretty horrendous conditions with a howling crosswind and in an aircraft that can be a bit of a handful (not to mention having x hundred pax down the back), it was pretty ropey airmanship to continue the approach in the first place. Having done so and bashed the wingtip on the ground in the process, surely one’s reaction should be: climb to a safe height, low speed handling check and then head for the nearest piece of into-wind concrete over 6,000’ long. The last thing you'd do would be to have another go at the same runway. In days of yore, even if it was the most junior JP on the squadron who’d done something like this, he’d have been taken behind the bike sheds for a good duffing by his flight commander for a gross act of press-on-itis.

[md4490]

My company suggests the decrab techinque...I prefer to "fly" cross control all the way to touchdown..flap3 ,top rudder ,wing down ,medium brake ,full reverse...you have to fight it a bit more but it gives (me) a better feel of how to handle the plane...the stronger the wind the earlier I start my inputs...as for wind limits only steady max 29 for a dry runway..gusts are left to Cpt. discretion...I forgot to mention that I fly the "family" 319,320,321....anyway the guy did recover and nobody got hurt...

[Kerosene Kraut]

German tabloid Bild now claims 24 yr old FO at controls during incident refering to german AAIB "BFU".

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...-gelandet.html

[flown-it]

All flying machines are to a more or less degree subject to some basic laws. One of which is the roll-yaw coupling. If a plane rolls it yaws, if it yaws it rolls. Therein lies the answer to how to fly a bus, particularly if you fly a crab approach. When you "kick off the drift" you better be dropping the wing into the wind. That action also prevents a drift downwind. Finally, a bad approach rarely leads to a good landing. Trying to get back to the center line at that late stage in that weather was not the smartest move.

[F7X2007]

Now after I read that the copilot flew, I am very convinced that this is what happened: she struggled to get it back to the centerline and – helas! I made it to the touchdown! – released the control inputs (you see NO lateral input on the video or picture after touchdown). Once the upwind wing rises, the wind pushes the airplane sideways, I doubt that here was any “additional” gust.
As 3.500-hrs A320-Cpt I can only confirm what md4490 and Right Engine state: in strong crosswinds, an Airbus must be landed like any other airplane, since the physics are the same, and it works (hold that upwind wing down!)

[walk23]

The German news magazine "Der Spiegel" now also reports in its online version that the FO was flying:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,539336,00.html

Some (translated) extracts:

"During the spectacular high wind landing attempt in Hamburg, it was the young female co-pilot who controlled the plane. The dramatic go around manoeuvre was then carried out by the experienced captain."

They also present this as if it is something that should not have been done:

"It is currently unknown why captain Oliver A. allowed his inexperienced colleague to do the approach during the storm 'Emma'".

[Sensible Garage]

google translation:

For now appears Saturday a very young co-pilot behind the bat almost nearly crash in Hamburg.

The film of the landing caused much stir. But according to Bild was not the hard wind which almost crashed Airbus, but the fact that the first pilot not behind the wheel Saturday.

The newspaper had this morning is the 39-year old pilot Oliver A. As the hero of the day presented: he saved the 133 passengers of flight LH 044, a death by exchange soon to withdraw when the landing threatened to go wrong.

Oliver was also very modest commented: "we have done our best."

Now it turns out that he probably is not in the chair Saturday, but the 24-year-old Maxi J. Bild raises the question: how is it possible that Oliver in this hard wind a late inexperienced colega countries?

The paper answers the question immediately: only in bad vision, the most experienced pilot with the bat. In hard wind applies that rule.

Lufthansa itself is a commentary on the plain: "The landing was teamwork."

[akerosid]

Different airline cultures - CX -v- LH

One thing that struck me about the handling of the two recent incidents, by CX and LH - is the vast difference between these two top class carriers. I can't help wondering what would have happened if this incident had happened with a CX aircraft? Would the crews have been returned to flying duties as quickly?

I know CX uses the "Reason model"/Swiss cheese approach to accident and incident investigation, but it occurs to me that in order for this to work effectively, there must be a very open culture, not one where a pilot/crew fears dismissal for any/every error; CX's culture - where it seems much more willing to do this - does not seem to be as conducive to optimum safety? LH's seems moreso?

(Might it also be said that the protections for employees are much greater in Germany than in HK, so CX has that much more freedom?)

Just some observations from a non-pilot ...

[Chris Scott]

A320 Crosswind Landing Technique - from the horse's mouth

Quote from Che Guevara:
Hopefully this will clear up some of the misconceptions etc.
http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/ethics/safety_lib/
[Unquote]

It needs to be pointed out that this document is NOT specific to Airbus-FBW, but includes ALL Airbus types.

Quote from the Airbus document:
"During the flare, rudder should be applied as required to align the aircraft with the runway heading. Any tendency to roll downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate input on the sidestick (or control column, as applicable)"
[Unquote]

Notice anything significant?
Airbus makes no distinction between their FBW types and their predecessors (A300/310).

Continuing the same quote from the Airbus document:
"With higher crosswind (above 15 kt to 20 kt component), a safe landing requires:
– A crabbed-approach, and
– A partial decrab prior to touchdown, using a combination of bank angle and crab angle (achieved by applying cross-controls).
"On most Airbus models, this requires touching down with:
– Maximum 5 degrees crab angle, and
– Maximum 5 degrees of bank angle."
[Unquote]

Later quote from the Airbus document:
"In a high crosswind, cross controls may have to be maintained after touchdown to prevent the into-wind wing from lifting and to counteract the weathercock effect... (etc.)..."
[Unquote. It goes on to discuss the effects of reverse-thrust and brakes.]

So, you Airbus-sceptic 737 drivers (bigots excepted), does all the above sound strangely familiar ?

The A320 is just another aeroplane. In a limiting crosswind, you can have just as much fun de-crabbing and chucking her bang on the centreline – with crossed controls and a little bit of into-wind bank – as you can on the 737. But - like any aeroplane - if you get it wrong, or the wind gusts way outside limits – mother nature will always win.

NOW: can the morons stop slagging this crew off? They can see the video just as well as we can. How many of us have, in the past, been subjected to this kind of ill-informed public scrutiny when we made one of our less tidy landings?

Let he or she who is perfect cast the first stone...

[boofhead]

Never flew the latest Airbus types, only A310 and most Boeings, but have always been interested in the differences, with a bias.
The 'bus driver has to account for different control laws, in this situation they change, how that affects the approach only they know.
However the biggest difference seems to me to be the side-stick that does not move. In a conventional airplane you can see the amount of aileron applied by the amount of control wheel (stick) displacement and if you have enough, you can wait for a response before moving it further or reversing the direction. With a non-moving side stick, I cannot see how this type of control can be used. You must leave it to the computer, and hope the conditions are not more than the computer can handle. Why not, then, accept the fact that all you are doing is a form of auto land and simply leave the auto pilot engaged for all landings? Why have a pilot at all in the Airbus types?
And another point I have not seen discussed; what happens when, after 20 plus years of flying this type of airplane, you move back to a conventional airplane? How do you restore your basic flying skills? If you are trained to leave it all to the computer, you will not be able to handle this sort of approach problem, or many others, because your instincts have been altered to one of inaction, when in a conventional airplane direct action will be required to maintain safe control.
I have seen how hard it is for a glass pilot to go back to conventional instruments, mostly because pilots will take the easy way out and begin to rely on the computers for instrument flying rather than use raw data occasionally. Basic handling, though, is much more serious and it would not surprise me to see more accidents due to a lack of skill for pilots coming back to conventional equipment.

[Chris Scott]

PKPF68-77, If you were an aerodrome Met Forecaster, I bet our paths have crossed!

To answer your question, I'm sure ATC would not DREAM of issuing a "Trend" forecast. That's why, with the sad dparture of you guys from most UK aerodromes (many years ago), said airfields ceased to issue Trends on their METARS. Gatwick is a typical example.

And, by the way, now that Rwy 23L at LHR is closed for good, is Stansted the only airfield in the South of England with a decent-length runway if the wind is, say, 190/35G48?

[OATNetjets]

Boofhead I do not see your point:

1 - On the FBW airbus fleet the sidesticks DO move, and near the ground you will get direct control law on the lateral axis. This means that you get roll control surfaces displacement proportional to the stick inputs, as in any other airliner. On the longitudinal axis the situation is almost the same in that apart from the protections if you put more stick displacement you get more elevators displacement.

2 - Well for your training concern, for sure most AB pilots would lack some skills to fly a super-constellation, but I am not sure they would be the only ones nowadays... But I do not see many around these days

[MSAW_CFIT]

I have had the opportunity to be a passenger on a landing similar to this on a Continental Airlines flight into BHX.

After a wobbly approach on short finals to RWY33 the wingtip just avoided the tarmac as the MLG hit the deck pretty hard, the aircrew then decided to initiate a go-around and landed on RWY15. Wind conditions were gusty.

I was working in ops for a BHX airline at the time, this is by far the worst landing I've sat through.

I'd like to know if get there-itis was a factor. The go-around would have been a good choice before the MLG touched down.

I remember a CPH flight from BHX with Maersk that had to make a fuel emergency call in severe weather after trying a diversion to Billund.

[Right Way Up]

OATNetjets,
On the A320 roll is in normal law until you touchdown.