Challenger Crash Almaty
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A little note regarding the 737-200. Followig was published many years ago:
Since 1970 there have been a number of reports by operators of B-737 aircraft who have experienced an aircraft pitchup or rolloff immediately after takeoff in weather conditions which were conducive to the formation of ice or frost on the wing leading edges.
As a result of incidents involving B-737 aircraft which experienced a sudden
roll after takeoff, The Boeing Co. on October 24, 1974, issued Operations Manual Bulletin
No. 74-8.
The continuation of reports of pitchup/rolloff occurrences prompted The
Boeing Co. to examine further the B-737 aircraft sensitivity to leading, edge contamination. In 1977 plans were formulated for wind tunnel and flight tests. Even before conducting these tests, The Boeing Co. on February 23, 1979, issued Operations Manual Bulletin 79-2 to advise flightcrews of a possible inadvertent pitchup/rolloff after takeoff due to ice accumulation on leading edge devices
As part of its investigation of the reported incidents, The Boeing Co. flight
tested a B-737-200 advanced airplane in the fall of 1980 to quantify the aerodynamic effects of contaminated leading edge slats. The leading edge slats were coated with an epoxy potting compound and the surface was roughened with a paint roller to simulate a coating with corn ice. A series of stalls was conducted with flaps up, and at flap positions of 1, 15, and 40. The stall characteristics with both symmetric and asymmetric leading
edge contaminations were characterized by a very apparent pitchup, yaw rate, and rolloff. These characteristics were more pronounced at flap settings less than 5 when the slats were sealed, that is, when there was no gap between the leading edge slat and the basic
wing such as that which occurs when the slats are fully extended coincident with flap settings between 10 and 40. The Boeing Co. concluded that takeoffs are executed during suspected icing conditions or adverse weather conditions, sound operational techniques must be employed.
The Boeing Co. internal memoranda showed that it was considering an engineering change to the wing thermal anti-ice system to permit the use of that system on the ground to assure a clear leading edge.
For those interested, more details can be found in the Air Florida Flight 90 accident report.
Since 1970 there have been a number of reports by operators of B-737 aircraft who have experienced an aircraft pitchup or rolloff immediately after takeoff in weather conditions which were conducive to the formation of ice or frost on the wing leading edges.
As a result of incidents involving B-737 aircraft which experienced a sudden
roll after takeoff, The Boeing Co. on October 24, 1974, issued Operations Manual Bulletin
No. 74-8.
The continuation of reports of pitchup/rolloff occurrences prompted The
Boeing Co. to examine further the B-737 aircraft sensitivity to leading, edge contamination. In 1977 plans were formulated for wind tunnel and flight tests. Even before conducting these tests, The Boeing Co. on February 23, 1979, issued Operations Manual Bulletin 79-2 to advise flightcrews of a possible inadvertent pitchup/rolloff after takeoff due to ice accumulation on leading edge devices
As part of its investigation of the reported incidents, The Boeing Co. flight
tested a B-737-200 advanced airplane in the fall of 1980 to quantify the aerodynamic effects of contaminated leading edge slats. The leading edge slats were coated with an epoxy potting compound and the surface was roughened with a paint roller to simulate a coating with corn ice. A series of stalls was conducted with flaps up, and at flap positions of 1, 15, and 40. The stall characteristics with both symmetric and asymmetric leading
edge contaminations were characterized by a very apparent pitchup, yaw rate, and rolloff. These characteristics were more pronounced at flap settings less than 5 when the slats were sealed, that is, when there was no gap between the leading edge slat and the basic
wing such as that which occurs when the slats are fully extended coincident with flap settings between 10 and 40. The Boeing Co. concluded that takeoffs are executed during suspected icing conditions or adverse weather conditions, sound operational techniques must be employed.
The Boeing Co. internal memoranda showed that it was considering an engineering change to the wing thermal anti-ice system to permit the use of that system on the ground to assure a clear leading edge.
For those interested, more details can be found in the Air Florida Flight 90 accident report.
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Pilot or God
Sorry but what I don't understand is the proud of a pilot. Is it to much to perform a correct de-icing of a aircraft. So many accidents are happen cause the guys fwd left and right are to proud. STOP it and many peole will live
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Who Knows if icing was involved.
But will we ever learn?
Off thread, but a coleague who went for an interview with a certain low cost carrier was asked by the human resources type person. What he would do if he found ice on his a/c in the morning. He replied de-ice it! Answer from human resources Do you know how much it costs to de-ice a 737, why not wait untill the sun comes up and melts the ice. His comment I know how much it costs to de-ice a 747 and whats that got to do with it? He got up and walked out.
So whilst company's are actively promoting this kind of thing accidents will still be happening due to ice contamination.
But will we ever learn?
Off thread, but a coleague who went for an interview with a certain low cost carrier was asked by the human resources type person. What he would do if he found ice on his a/c in the morning. He replied de-ice it! Answer from human resources Do you know how much it costs to de-ice a 737, why not wait untill the sun comes up and melts the ice. His comment I know how much it costs to de-ice a 747 and whats that got to do with it? He got up and walked out.
So whilst company's are actively promoting this kind of thing accidents will still be happening due to ice contamination.
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Rotation Technique
Bravo the poster who mentioned the "JERKOFF" instead of a smooth rotation into a takeoff.
It is also called a "snatch" rotation. And except for certain, almost test flight situations, shouldn't be used.
And this goes for all planes , not just the Challenger.
I wish the FAA had observers at the end of all runways to perform an external wing check prior to takeoff, and if no good, no takeoff clearance. Same for other ICAO nations.
Feeling the plane's lift, sensing it, the heft in the stick, whatever you want to call it...is a lost art.
It is also called a "snatch" rotation. And except for certain, almost test flight situations, shouldn't be used.
And this goes for all planes , not just the Challenger.
I wish the FAA had observers at the end of all runways to perform an external wing check prior to takeoff, and if no good, no takeoff clearance. Same for other ICAO nations.
Feeling the plane's lift, sensing it, the heft in the stick, whatever you want to call it...is a lost art.
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quote
It is also called a "snatch" rotation. And except for certain, almost test flight situations, shouldn't be used.
unqoute
That is not entirely correct, certain types of airplanes need to be (strongly) "pulled" ( into a "snatch" rotation) ...there is a special "pull" call @ v1 when icing conditions are given and the aircraft has been de iced before.... ( fluid in the area of the elevator which requires higher rudder forces ) , however at the CL 604 that´s not the case
It is also called a "snatch" rotation. And except for certain, almost test flight situations, shouldn't be used.
unqoute
That is not entirely correct, certain types of airplanes need to be (strongly) "pulled" ( into a "snatch" rotation) ...there is a special "pull" call @ v1 when icing conditions are given and the aircraft has been de iced before.... ( fluid in the area of the elevator which requires higher rudder forces ) , however at the CL 604 that´s not the case
doubleu-anker:
The information and the knowledge regarding this aircraft is widely available. I posted the link to the Canadian TSB's report on the Air Canada CRJ accident at Fredericton, New Brunswick because it addresses this question, in part, in Appendix C of the report and is entitled:
Appendix C -
Computed Versus Expected CL-Alpha Curve
I will not reproduce the graph here as it is under copyright protection but the report is freely available to all at the link provided.
What a great shame the manufacturers and authorities are unable to come up with a realistic test to see how an a/c performs at Vr+ with contaminated wings.
Appendix C -
Computed Versus Expected CL-Alpha Curve
I will not reproduce the graph here as it is under copyright protection but the report is freely available to all at the link provided.
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While there are undoubted design similarities between the CL-604 and the CRJ-100/200 (the former being the subject of the accident to which this thread relates, the latter being the Fredericton aircraft), with the two types sharing a common type certificate and a common ancestor (the CL-601) there are of course also some important differences, so one must be careful in attempting to draw conclusions which apply to both variants.
Additionally, Frederiction was a landing accident, with the aircraft essentially in the landing configuration at the time of the stall (the call had been made for flaps, per the TSB report, but would hardly have had time to move from the flaps 45 position). Almaty is by all accounts a takeoff accident, which means flaps 20 for the CL-604. So the graph in the TSB report can only be of fairly general use.
Additionally, Frederiction was a landing accident, with the aircraft essentially in the landing configuration at the time of the stall (the call had been made for flaps, per the TSB report, but would hardly have had time to move from the flaps 45 position). Almaty is by all accounts a takeoff accident, which means flaps 20 for the CL-604. So the graph in the TSB report can only be of fairly general use.
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A spate of Montrose - Almaty - to be continued
PROBABLE CAUSE
The Board concludes that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure
to ensure that the airplane’s wings were free of ice or snow contamination that accumulated
while the airplane was on the ground, which resulted in an attempted takeoff with upper wing
contamination that induced the subsequent stall and collision with the ground. A factor
contributing to the accident was the pilots’ lack of experience flying during winter weather
conditions.
This happened Montrose, Colorado, November 28, 2004
The next thing, it was a fuel stop. We have low temp. and the aircraft is refueled with "warm" fuel, so everybody knows what will happen (condensed water), special on the upper wing skin.
Simular accidents happened 3 times before, what will be with estimated number of unreported cases, will say, what was close to the accident but godspeed, nothing happened.
to be continued.....sadly
The Board concludes that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure
to ensure that the airplane’s wings were free of ice or snow contamination that accumulated
while the airplane was on the ground, which resulted in an attempted takeoff with upper wing
contamination that induced the subsequent stall and collision with the ground. A factor
contributing to the accident was the pilots’ lack of experience flying during winter weather
conditions.
This happened Montrose, Colorado, November 28, 2004
The next thing, it was a fuel stop. We have low temp. and the aircraft is refueled with "warm" fuel, so everybody knows what will happen (condensed water), special on the upper wing skin.
Simular accidents happened 3 times before, what will be with estimated number of unreported cases, will say, what was close to the accident but godspeed, nothing happened.
to be continued.....sadly
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Holdover times
Holdover time for type 1 fluid 75/25 in snow 6 - 15 mins with a lower temp limit of -14 for application
Holdover time for type 11 fluid 75/25 in snow 15 - 30 mins lower limit of -14 for 75/25 mix
I am not speculating, just thought I would check the conditions that have been posted on prune regarding this sad accident as an exercise (for my benefit) from the tables provided as a guide found in most ops manuals and the UK CAA AIC's. No one seems to have highlighted this point yet and its pertinant to all ops not just the Challenger. Food for thought when considering fatigue and commercial pressure.
Regarding the 850 accident at Moscow didnt that have some problem with its nosewheel steering??? On a contaminated runway???
Safe flying to all for 2008
Holdover time for type 11 fluid 75/25 in snow 15 - 30 mins lower limit of -14 for 75/25 mix
I am not speculating, just thought I would check the conditions that have been posted on prune regarding this sad accident as an exercise (for my benefit) from the tables provided as a guide found in most ops manuals and the UK CAA AIC's. No one seems to have highlighted this point yet and its pertinant to all ops not just the Challenger. Food for thought when considering fatigue and commercial pressure.
Regarding the 850 accident at Moscow didnt that have some problem with its nosewheel steering??? On a contaminated runway???
Safe flying to all for 2008
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I still wonder how they wanted to manage their flightdutytimes.
Maybe someone can help.
The operator is from Frankfurt Germany and T/O was from Hannover.
They must have been in Hannover already and rested at least 10hours.
The distance is approx. 6000NM ( exact 5971NM ) and that is HAJ-direct-ALA-direct overfly Lanzhou-direct HKG. No approaches included and every distance great circle. You never fly ALA-Lanzhou direct but it was easier to calculate. This leg is much longer.
Cruise speed is 0.80 459kt
or long range is .74 425kt
http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_2..._factsheet.pdf
No wind this means: 6000/459= 13h 04 minutes.
Max dutytime is only 14hours for a two man cockpit.
Considering 30minutes preparation ( min. by german law ) and 15 min. after work ( also min. by german law ) You got the 14h max duty time almost full.
But there is the chance to max it out by the commander under special circumstances to an additional 2 hours.
But in these two hours you got add the following:
You got taxitime out at HAJ and refueling ground time at ALA. De-icing, taxi in and out of ALA, approach into HKG and taxi at HKG and your 16hours are more then full.
Pretty sharp calculated timetable.
Maybe someone can help.
The operator is from Frankfurt Germany and T/O was from Hannover.
They must have been in Hannover already and rested at least 10hours.
The distance is approx. 6000NM ( exact 5971NM ) and that is HAJ-direct-ALA-direct overfly Lanzhou-direct HKG. No approaches included and every distance great circle. You never fly ALA-Lanzhou direct but it was easier to calculate. This leg is much longer.
Cruise speed is 0.80 459kt
or long range is .74 425kt
http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_2..._factsheet.pdf
No wind this means: 6000/459= 13h 04 minutes.
Max dutytime is only 14hours for a two man cockpit.
Considering 30minutes preparation ( min. by german law ) and 15 min. after work ( also min. by german law ) You got the 14h max duty time almost full.
But there is the chance to max it out by the commander under special circumstances to an additional 2 hours.
But in these two hours you got add the following:
You got taxitime out at HAJ and refueling ground time at ALA. De-icing, taxi in and out of ALA, approach into HKG and taxi at HKG and your 16hours are more then full.
Pretty sharp calculated timetable.
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The destination was Bangkok, not Hong Kong, according to information from www.procuror.kz. This makes only a slight difference in distance:
EDDV - UAAA: 2739 NM
UAAA - VHHH: 2384 NM
UAAA - VTBD: 2408 NM
All distances are calculated via airway routings.
The total distance is 5123 NM or 5147 NM. This is still a huge distance for a crew of two pilots - during night and without any rest time between the legs.
EDDV - UAAA: 2739 NM
UAAA - VHHH: 2384 NM
UAAA - VTBD: 2408 NM
All distances are calculated via airway routings.
The total distance is 5123 NM or 5147 NM. This is still a huge distance for a crew of two pilots - during night and without any rest time between the legs.
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Sorry, for the wrong distances.
Got it from this website..
Never trust the internet
http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/calculate-distance.html
Still a very long flight.
Got it from this website..
Never trust the internet
http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/calculate-distance.html
Still a very long flight.
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I was flying from yerevan that night to Bishkek where we scraped in.It was indeed an auful night with vis right down to 800m in moderate snow.Winter in this part of the world can be terrible with very few options for diversions.
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"Because once you hold an AOC (commercial carrier) in Europe, JAR OPS 1 applies for each single flight- even if the owner is on board. Unless you temporarily remove this particular A/C from your AOC- which is a very time consuming paper work. So i assume it was "for hire"."
Not necessarily true. Some operators do have exemptions for owner flights. (in Germany).
Some authorities do accept a simple "P" instead of "C" in the techlog and you´re private. (Luxembourg for example) [I know that JAROPS is actually saying something different, but thats how it works in real life]
BTW. D-A RWE would suggest another owner than Mr.Windhorst?
But then, does it really matter? At the time of the accident, they should not have been anywhere near the FDT limits. And if you regularly operate as an AOC pilot, you don´t "switch" your habits just because this one flight is privately operated. At least not regarding DeIcing, IMO.
_____
"Holdover time for type 1 fluid 75/25 in snow 6 - 15 mins with a lower temp limit of -14 for application"
"They actually deiced the a/c with type I fluid."
Mhhhh. May I ask how reliable your information is? I´ve heard all sorts of info on de-icing ranging from not deiced to your post...I do know that the surviving pilot said that they deiced.
Not necessarily true. Some operators do have exemptions for owner flights. (in Germany).
Some authorities do accept a simple "P" instead of "C" in the techlog and you´re private. (Luxembourg for example) [I know that JAROPS is actually saying something different, but thats how it works in real life]
BTW. D-A RWE would suggest another owner than Mr.Windhorst?
But then, does it really matter? At the time of the accident, they should not have been anywhere near the FDT limits. And if you regularly operate as an AOC pilot, you don´t "switch" your habits just because this one flight is privately operated. At least not regarding DeIcing, IMO.
_____
"Holdover time for type 1 fluid 75/25 in snow 6 - 15 mins with a lower temp limit of -14 for application"
"They actually deiced the a/c with type I fluid."
Mhhhh. May I ask how reliable your information is? I´ve heard all sorts of info on de-icing ranging from not deiced to your post...I do know that the surviving pilot said that they deiced.