KLM 777 Turbulence Incident?

[fokkerking!]

This incident is just the risk of a service orientated airline. You get stuff done, no seatbelt sign on when its not necessary, and the cabin crew can stay in the cabin when its not too bad. Here they hit some unexpected turbulence, we must suppose, I know KLM from within and know our policies. This is just the risk, I personally love this policy when flying as a passenger as opposed to the US airlines, with the fasten seat-belt sign on during the whole flight, just covering their asses. Nobody will care about the fasten seat-belt sign when its on the whole time, so eventually this creates a potentially more dangerous situation, because people dont care about it anymore when there actually is some substantial turbulence (ahead).

Best regards, fk

[KLMer]

JW411

IF you dont have anything useful to say then dont bother at all.

[stator vane]

on the subject---

yesterday June 19th, over the UK was a large handfull of avoidance material

and today the 20th over northern italy!!!

some of the most widespread disturbance i have seen.

over northern italy and austria, there was a hell of squall line of big tall buildups hiding in amongst the stratus. it looked like i was back in the US midwest.

[AVOdriver]

Seatbelts in turbulance

I was particularly interested in this thread as it highlighted a "heated" discussion I had with the cabin crew of a Lufthansa flight earlier this year.
We were travlling with our infant (10 months) and having previously flown on Lufthansa where we were told that no infant seatbelts where available I had borrowed a "loop" type belt from our own stores just in case.
As no on board belt was offered we dug out our own and secured our baby in the usual way. During pre pushback cabin checks the cc told us that the belt must be removed as "we have no training for this type of belt"!!
After an escalating discussion where I voiced my concerns about aborted take-off, CAT etc. the purser "threatened me with "the Captain".
I consider it my good fortune that the captain on this flight was at least to my mind a reasonable person and allowed us to continue using the belt. A big thank you to that man if he should happen to read this.
I later contact the LBA (German CAA) and was given the following reply:

The Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (LBA, which is the German Civil Aviation
Authority) is often asked whether German air carriers are allowed to use car
type child seats or extension loop seat belt on board their aeroplanes.
German air carriers are not allowed to use extension loop seat belt.

Now, that we have introduced a specific qualification procedure for
that purpose, German air carriers are allowed to use child restraint
systems (CRS) on board their own aeroplanes or allow parents to bring them
on board, provided the CRS type(s) are qualified (especially) for these
aeroplanes by the TÜV Rheinland. However, our airlines are not allowed
to use CRS types that are not so qualified.

A German "Qualification Procedure for CRS for Use on Aeroplanes" (TÜV
Doc.: TÜV/958-01/2001) has been developed by the TÜV Rheinland in charge
of the German Ministry of Transport together with the LBA to ensure
compatibility of the specific CRS with the actual aircraft seats on which
it shall be installed and to ensure that there is sufficient space
available at the passenger seat where the CRS is installed to protect the
child in an emergency landing.

Only CRS already approved according to the European Community
Regulation ECE R-44-03 series for use on land vehicles, US FMVSS 213 incl.
Chapter 8, or an equivalent aircraft specific CRS performance standard are
accepted as candidates for the qualification. (Note: CRS having received
an LBA type approval as aircraft equipment (instead of having shown
compliance with ECE R-44), like the Innovint CRS Type 250-( ),
nevertheless, in addition, have to be qualified by the TÜV Rheinland to be allowed
to be used on aeroplanes operated by German airlines. The TÜV Rheinland
located in Cologne (http://www.de.tuv.com/) is the only competent
independent organisation accepted by us so far for qualifying CRS for use on
aeroplanes operated by German airlines. To our knowledge, ECE R-44 is
also an accepted standard for CRS use on cars in many countries.

The German qualification procedure is based upon a correlation of CRS
type specific data to be provided by the CRS manufacturer with aircraft
interior specific data to be provided by the respective airline asking
for qualification. The qualification procedure also includes an
installation test on a TÜV specific test seat where different anchor point
locations can be simulated and the correct routing of the seat belt and
the correct buckle position can be tested. In the end, the aircraft
seats/locations where the CRS is allowed to be installed are marked in the
respective cabin layouts.

Once a CRS is qualified for the first time with respect to the
aeroplanes of one operator, the CRS gets an Identification (ID) number (project
number). The CRS manufacturer is then authorised by the TÜV to mark
their product with the TÜV logo which incorporates the specific ID number.

Once the qualification system is fully established, user relevant data
showing the airline specific cabin layouts, in which the seats allowed
for the installation of this particular CRS are marked, will be
published on the TÜV internet pages under the respective ID number and the
name of the respective airline.

The CRS manufacturer also has to provide installation and user
instructions for use of the CRS in aeroplanes. The CRS manufacturer as well as
the airline is obliged to indicate any change of their product that
could influence the validity of the qualification to the qualifying
organisation.

As to the aircraft specific data to be provided by the manufacturer, it
seems to be best that the qualifying organisation, which should be an
independent, competent organisation accepted by the relevant aviation
authority, performs the necessary measurements in the aeroplanes by
themselves, unless they have other personnel trained for that purpose,
because if a measurement has not been made correctly, it could render the
results invalid.

The qualification procedure seems to be a complicated procedure, but
for the time being the best we can offer to really protect especially
small children up to two years of age who otherwise would be sitting
unfastened on the lap of an adult. We hope that this procedure works to our
and the airlines' satisfaction.

You will find further information about qualified CRS at
http://www.tuvdotcom.com/pi/web/search.xml?LanguageSelected=de&searchbox=Child+Restraint+Sys tem+&strLevel=0&strUrlId=1&strUserId=&LanguageChanged=en-us
.
Having read throught the above posts particularly reference serious injuries sustained in CAT does this reply strike anyone else as incongrous.

[Doodles]

Honest Advice Please

So, in case of unexpected turbulance I should always keep my seatbelt fastened. For the threat of DVT, I should stretch and walk around the cabin frequently.

Which is correct (for safety reasons - not legal)?

[Rainboe]

Look it's quite simple- stop trying to act confused! Nobody is trying to stop you stretching your legs (as long as you are not causing an obstruction), but when your arse and seat are in contact, you wear your belt, whether the sign is on or not. Is that difficult?

[SLFguy]

"when your arse and seat are in contact, you wear your belt, whether the sign is on or not."

I like that - very to the point. Humbly suggest that it should be printed on the back of every seat.

[Rainboe]

Thank you Sire, people say I have a certain way with words....usually adding swear words to that remark.