MAYDAY over the Bay of Biscay
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I can't help but think that this thread, (and countless other threads) would be far more interesting and remaining on its original point if only everyone put one patently silly and all too frequent poster on their 'ignore' list.
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Guys
He's a saint compared to Captain Ed - anyone remember him.
And once you get used to his "good ole boy" style of delivery, he's really quite amusing, as well as being utterly predictable, which is reassuring in this fast moving and ever changing "world in which we live in" (to steal a few words from Paul McCartney.)
Give the old buzzard a break
He needs to learn Spanish to deal with the hordes of latinos who are about to replace all the Europeans on holiday in the USA - won't be easy at the same age as Methusulah.
He's a saint compared to Captain Ed - anyone remember him.
And once you get used to his "good ole boy" style of delivery, he's really quite amusing, as well as being utterly predictable, which is reassuring in this fast moving and ever changing "world in which we live in" (to steal a few words from Paul McCartney.)
Give the old buzzard a break
He needs to learn Spanish to deal with the hordes of latinos who are about to replace all the Europeans on holiday in the USA - won't be easy at the same age as Methusulah.
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Few years back,lost an eng.on lift-off on 737classic,didn't say Mayday,nor Pan,just told Tower what happened,requested climb straight ahead to 2000' AGL,performed the C.L.called for vectors for an ILS straight in and landed safely...Did it all wrong????I guess it very much depends on the circumstances of the situation you're in.My case it was in a period of very light traffic at the airport I was,good weather and all.I do agree that if you're in a place that's unfamiliar to you or in bad weather,heavy traffic and all,I would go for the big M or pan ....
Anyway,any news on tha ACTUAL mayday???????
Anyway,any news on tha ACTUAL mayday???????
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>>Few years back,lost an eng.on lift-off on 737classic,didn't say Mayday,nor Pan,just told Tower what happened,requested climb straight ahead to 2000' AGL,performed the C.L.called for vectors for an ILS straight in and landed safely...<<
Well done, as it should be.
Well done, as it should be.
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Originally Posted by 411A
Well done, as it should be.
I disagree, 411A. Losing 50% of thrust on take-off certainly merits a "(C/S)MAYDAY x 3, engine failure, wait out" if nothing else.... Why not? What is there to lose by declaring an emergency in this way? Far better than the bumbling "Ah, sir, we err, are..err requestin'...errr....vectors...err, for a....err, problem...errr...sir,..errr...as of this time....err, sir" heard from some.
But the rest of that emergency sounds to have been well handled.
But the rest of that emergency sounds to have been well handled.
Last edited by BEagle; 1st Jun 2006 at 08:09.
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I agree with BEagle and others with his line of thinking. As an ATCO I would much rather a pilot was over-cautious than didn't tell me anything. Similarly, if a pilot reports one engine out on a twin aircraft he will get an ATC "Full Emergency" which includes calling the outside services in. Yes, it may be a procedure landing, however it is always best to do too much for a situtation than not enough and have to explain to the subsequent board of enquiry if they do crash and burn.
-HD-
-HD-
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Flight Safety Foundation:
"International Civil Aviation Organization procedures for declaring mayday or pan pan eliminate ambiguity about an aircraft in distress or an aircraft in an urgency condition, respectively. Declaring an emergency generates maximum assistance from air traffic controllers worldwide, but delay in declaring an emergency may create confusion or narrow the pilot’s options."
http://www.flightsafety.org/pubs/ao_2000.html
http://www.wingfiles.com/files/comms/aomarapr00.pdf
cheers
"International Civil Aviation Organization procedures for declaring mayday or pan pan eliminate ambiguity about an aircraft in distress or an aircraft in an urgency condition, respectively. Declaring an emergency generates maximum assistance from air traffic controllers worldwide, but delay in declaring an emergency may create confusion or narrow the pilot’s options."
http://www.flightsafety.org/pubs/ao_2000.html
http://www.wingfiles.com/files/comms/aomarapr00.pdf
cheers
Actually, 411A's posts provide an interesting historical counterpoint to the modern age. Whilst many might consider them somewhat 'redneck blunt', they do provide another perspective and, as we all know (I hope) a good captain should listen to all inputs before making a decision. Hence the 'good ol' boy' does actually have a valid part in our PPRuNery, so please let's not be unreasonably insulting.
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At risk of getting flamed meself (and I'm reading in because I like to understand how airlines work, not because I know anything about the poor guy whose predicament started the thread) I felt I had to point out that, on the English/French language thing, "Mayday" is, er, French. 
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Not so long ago, Duty ATCO at my unit received a non-urgent call from the parent ACC concerning a recently departed jet airliner (twin-engined), advising that said airliner was diverting back. Reason given was "Technical Difficulty". No further info was given in initial call, and the ATCO duly declared a Local Standby as per Emergency Orders.
On further investigation (through the ACC), it was discovered that the aircraft was suffering from a hydraulic leak, and as a result did not have full power available in both engines. At no time however, did the crew declare any sort of emergency!
On receiving this information; the ATCO immediately upgraded to a Full Emergency (with all the associated Bells & Whistles!), and from what I hear, the crew were even a bit miffed when they were greeted by the luminous blue welcoming commitee on landing!
The question in all of our minds though: why so reluctant to declare an Emergency?
If assistance may be required, then why not make use of it? Surely the crew couldn't have known for definite that the leak wasn't going to get worse, with all the possible scenarios that could have resulted from that (Control Surface problems; high-speed heavy landing, the aircraft had only recently departed after all! etc.) There are enough historical precedents out there to illustrate what I'm driving at.
Anyway, in the end the flight returned safely, thankfully. The aircraft didn't fly again for quite some time however (draw your own conclusions).
Unrelated as this little anecdote is to the original question with which this thread was started, it is nonetheless very relevant to the topic.
Even if (for whatever reason) you as a pilot should decide not to declare a Pan or Mayday at a time of difficulty or distress, we as ATCO's will decide our level of response to the situation based on the info available to us.
However, were the above scenario slightly different in that the ATCO concerned had not declared an Emergency because the crew had not done so; and the hydraulic leak that was the cause of the problem turned out to be worse than actually occurred, how different would the outcome have been?
I know we'd have preferred it had the crew declared at least a PAN, if for no other reason than to remove any possible ambiguity. At least that way there wouldn't have been any possibility of time being wasted in getting the necessary resources mobilised!
On further investigation (through the ACC), it was discovered that the aircraft was suffering from a hydraulic leak, and as a result did not have full power available in both engines. At no time however, did the crew declare any sort of emergency!
On receiving this information; the ATCO immediately upgraded to a Full Emergency (with all the associated Bells & Whistles!), and from what I hear, the crew were even a bit miffed when they were greeted by the luminous blue welcoming commitee on landing!
The question in all of our minds though: why so reluctant to declare an Emergency?
If assistance may be required, then why not make use of it? Surely the crew couldn't have known for definite that the leak wasn't going to get worse, with all the possible scenarios that could have resulted from that (Control Surface problems; high-speed heavy landing, the aircraft had only recently departed after all! etc.) There are enough historical precedents out there to illustrate what I'm driving at.
Anyway, in the end the flight returned safely, thankfully. The aircraft didn't fly again for quite some time however (draw your own conclusions).
Unrelated as this little anecdote is to the original question with which this thread was started, it is nonetheless very relevant to the topic.
Even if (for whatever reason) you as a pilot should decide not to declare a Pan or Mayday at a time of difficulty or distress, we as ATCO's will decide our level of response to the situation based on the info available to us.
However, were the above scenario slightly different in that the ATCO concerned had not declared an Emergency because the crew had not done so; and the hydraulic leak that was the cause of the problem turned out to be worse than actually occurred, how different would the outcome have been?
I know we'd have preferred it had the crew declared at least a PAN, if for no other reason than to remove any possible ambiguity. At least that way there wouldn't have been any possibility of time being wasted in getting the necessary resources mobilised!
More bang for your buck
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Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar
Actually 'Mayday' is anglais .... 'M'aidez' is probably the French 
and therefore it’s still French
Last edited by green granite; 2nd Jun 2006 at 08:33.
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An engine failure in any aircraft IS a serious incident. In a twin, it's very serious and should warrant a MAYDAY call. That'll get you noticed and give you the required level of priority.
If/when you get everything sorted out satisfactorily and the aircraft is fully under control, there is no fire etc then it can be downgraded to a PAN if required.
It still requires a landing at the nearest suitable airport. Better to be down here wishing you were up there ....
If/when you get everything sorted out satisfactorily and the aircraft is fully under control, there is no fire etc then it can be downgraded to a PAN if required.
It still requires a landing at the nearest suitable airport. Better to be down here wishing you were up there ....
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To throw another ten-penny-worth into the 'Mayday' language debate...
'M'aider is the infinitive form of the reflexive verb "help me" within French syntax; however, it is not used as a stand-alone imperative command in standard French, but it is so used in some French patois. This has led some etymologists to claim that what the convention really meant was an abbreviation of the phrase, "Venez m’aider" ("Come help me"). "M'aidez" (which is not grammatically correct either in standard French) is considered an acceptable alternative. In both cases, however, mayday must be considered as a rather crude English phonetic representation. It should be also noted that while in English the phrase is only used in distress situation, in French it carries no more sense of urgency than its English translation "help me".
What French people in distress actually shout is, "Au secours!"'
Bottom line...In many (most?) parts of the world a 'Pan-Pan' call will evoke the response, "What?" or something similar.
'Mayday' works every time!
'M'aider is the infinitive form of the reflexive verb "help me" within French syntax; however, it is not used as a stand-alone imperative command in standard French, but it is so used in some French patois. This has led some etymologists to claim that what the convention really meant was an abbreviation of the phrase, "Venez m’aider" ("Come help me"). "M'aidez" (which is not grammatically correct either in standard French) is considered an acceptable alternative. In both cases, however, mayday must be considered as a rather crude English phonetic representation. It should be also noted that while in English the phrase is only used in distress situation, in French it carries no more sense of urgency than its English translation "help me".
What French people in distress actually shout is, "Au secours!"'
Bottom line...In many (most?) parts of the world a 'Pan-Pan' call will evoke the response, "What?" or something similar.
'Mayday' works every time!
Time merchant
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I spoke to Brest ACC about the incident. All they could tell me was that the aircraft (French registration) landed safely at an unidentified aerodrome in France.
As alluded to above a number of aircraft were involved in relaying the various messages to/from the distressed aircraft.
So a happy ending.
As alluded to above a number of aircraft were involved in relaying the various messages to/from the distressed aircraft.
So a happy ending.
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Well actually, KLM'er, he was busy at the time, raising the landing gear, silencing the fire bell, pulling the respective engine fire handle and discharging the engine fire extinguisher.... among other things.
First things first, old boy....
First things first, old boy....
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Oh, KLMer!! Why?!! Oh, why did you invite him back? He was enjoying the tender grass on the prairie. Oh well, this is nothing to do with me. I thought the thread was dead!
