Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)

[DeeCee]

Whew, common sense at last. Well done the last two chaps.

[DeeCee]

oops, sorry. I include Diddly Dee obviously, someone posted too quickly!

[omnidirectional737]

Heard some one today doing a PA on 121.5, may be they were practising . Obviously wrong box selected, very funny for every one else listening though, think it was air berlin.

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by DFC

It is true that the UK has assigned 123.45 to ATS services.
Only the UK has done that and because it is the international chat frequency, it has published NOTAM and AIC to let pilots know.
The CAA say that the frequency is monitored!
Of course the Shannon FIR and the Paris FIR, Brest FIR, Amsterdam FIR etc have no such restriction that I am aware of and of course pilots can chat on that frequency just on the other side of the FIR boundary
Regards,
DFC

Not so. 123.45 may be 'the international chat frequency' on the Atlantic but elsewehere it gets used by ATC agencies. Try doing some chat on 123.45 in the Guanghzhou FIR and you'll get a b*ll*cking from Macao approach who'll rightly demand to know why your chatting on the NAT air to air frequency when your 7000 miles from the correct location. If you want to know the correct air to air frequency then look on your charts. It certainly isn't 123.45 in Myanmar FIR.

[CaptAirProx]

Oh Didley D - thankyou thankyou thankyou.

There also seems to be a fascination with the fact that D&D only provide AutoTriangulation and that its not always there where you need it. So bloody what. The times I have called D&D for traing at lowish level and what they do is make you sqawk. They then talk to a local radar unit, who then see you. If that fails they get you to turn. And then they hand you to that controller......My point being, they are there to help in anyway possible whether it be to just sound calming on the R/T to doing all your map reading for you.

When the chips are down, pilots tend to forget even the most easiest tasks such as pick up the map, find who is the nearest radar unit - pick out the frequency and dial it. However we ALL know 121.500.

Use it use it use it folks! If the gods upstairs can't cope with it - it ain't ya problem!

[B Fraser]

Originally Posted by Flying Microphone

If it's a genuine one, send the boys and girls a slab or two ... they do a bloody good job for all who fly.
Happy flying

At the end of my club visit to D&D, I asked how much beer they were sent each week by grateful pilots. The answer was the square root of nothing. 10mins of flying costs more than an appropriate gesture of thanks

Good post Diddley Dee, I look forward to making a few practice PANS during the summer. Is there anything that PPL students can add to make the exercise more valuable for you ?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by B Fraser

At the end of my club visit to D&D, I asked how much beer they were sent each week by grateful pilots. The answer was the square root of nothing.

Is that, I wonder, anything to do with the Double Diamond badge on their door?? - any real ale drinker would naturally assume that they had no taste in beer at all, and send them chocolates instead.

[Diddley Dee]

Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat

Is that, I wonder, anything to do with the Double Diamond badge on their door?? - any real ale drinker would naturally assume that they had no taste in beer at all, and send them chocolates instead.

Cant stand bitter anyway

As regards what type of practice, from our point of view you are welcome to go for any type of practice emergency you see fit. The facility is there to be used, it doesnt say that you may only use it for a simple training fix. However be prepared to get binned off the freq sharpish if an emergency calls while you are doing your PP. As an aside if the emergency is on UHF 243.0 then you obviously wouldnt necessarily know why we were terminating the PP.

We are also very aware how much prolonged PP calls can antagonise CAT guys so we do try to stike a balance in how long we "allow" a longer PP call to go on for, but by all means please make use of the facility. I am learning to fly, (just did my QXC the other day) & I always try to do one each trip to help the guys training ...............

Regards

Diddley Dee

[ShyTorque]

So who was the bright spark asking for the toilet emptying service on 121.5 this afternoon then - when someone told him he was on "guard" he continued to repeat the conversation? Don't think it was a PPL.......

Never mind, we just turned down the radio volume until he had finished making a complete pillock of himself and then, guess what? We turned up the volume again and continued on our way.

[EffohX]

However be prepared to get binned off the freq sharpish if an emergency calls while you are doing your PP.

I'm reminded of the old Vietnam war era yarn (a true one) of the F100 driver (that's a Super Sabre, not a Fokker, for you young 'uns) who made what can only be caled a classic calll on 243.00, (which was commonly known then as "(US) Army Primary").

Two US Army helo pilots were (as was all too usual) babbling on on Guard when the F100 driver called up and said "When you two gentlemen are quite finished, I'd like to squeeze my Mayday in." ... and proceeded to give his (very cooool) Mayday call.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of what seems to be the majority of posters here, I'm afraid I'm with the naysayers. 121.5 is an emergency frequency and in every other country in the world, isn't used as a practice frequency. No one in his right mind would object to having his peacful Sunday afternoon interrupted by a genuine call for assistance, but even after reading all the posts in their defence, these "practice pan, practice pan" calls quite honestly amaze me.

If this wonderful service you have in the UK is so vital to trainees, why in the world don't you have a dedicated frequency for practice calls, (as the military has with UHF)? All the comments about the necessity of giving a student confidence in using the system don't wash with me. If you take that argument to its logical conclusion, a student would be required to actually experience every emergency in the book right through to its conclusion.

Off to my trunk now to see if I've still got my old tin hat. I fear I'm going to need it.

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by EffohX

If this wonderful service you have in the UK is so vital to trainees, why in the world don't you have a dedicated frequency for practice calls, (as the military has with UHF)?

Because no one will pay for it.

BD

[Diddley Dee]

I think everyone is in agreement on that one........ the ideal solution is a seperate freq but there isnt one at present. Our Mil pilots call PPs frequently on PETF (even whilst undergoing initial flying training operating relatively simple ac) because they recognise a need. Civil pilots do not have a PETF so their choice is use 121.5 as legislated in this country or dont practice...... Many of the ATSUs particulary in the busy SE, just dont have the capacity to offer the pilots of GA ac the oppurtunity to practice emergencies on their discrete ATC freq. Indeed at times when they get a puddle jumper type that has a minor emergency they sometimes dump him across to us as they are stretched to capacity & sometimes cannot offer him the full assistance he needs.
I completely understand reasoned opinions such as those expressed by Effohx, but it is the system that is in place at present and is there to be used.
If anyone has a mate who can provide another VHF freq to be used as a VHF PETF you would have the unreserved support of all those who work In D&D.

Diddley Dee

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by Diddley Dee

If anyone has a mate who can provide another VHF freq to be used as a VHF PETF you would have the unreserved support of all those who work In D&D.

I do but my mates aren't going to pay for the work to identify suitable tx/rx sites, the spectrum analysis to ensure that frequency doesn't interfere with nearby frequencies, the provision, installation and maintenance of the rx/tx masts and equipment, the wiring and connection to the Auto-T, the ongoing maintenance and the annual cost of dedicated lines.
A frequency is the simple (and cheap) bit

BD

[Skidkid]

Use of 123.45 MHz

Please see separate thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...69#post2513869

[DeeCee]

This is not about Vietnam and it is not about flying anywhere else other than the UK. This is about flying in cluttered airspace. I am amazed at the attitudes of some of the supposedly professional pilots. You are just sounding off in an ignorant fashion.

D & D themselves say that there is not a problem. What's the matter, can't you read?

[FullWings]

D & D themselves say that there is not a problem. What's the matter, can't you read?

I think I see one of the reasons for the differences in opinion. D&Ds primary task is to monitor the emergency frequency then take action should it be required. The commercial pilot, however, is trying to manage the flight, interact with ATC and keep a 'listening ear' on 121.5 as a sub-task, so there is much more opportunity for distraction. The two situations are not directly comparable...

[klink]

Originally Posted by DeeCee

I am amazed at the attitudes of some of the supposedly professional pilots. You are just sounding off in an ignorant fashion.

I'm sorry, I promised to leave the topic but I get these mails the whole time reminding me of replies.

I think what some people still don't get, is that this isn't a pissing contest between GA and Commercial Aviation.
Are commercial pilots not allowed anymore to express their opinion if something really bothers them?
Funny thing is that Diddley Dee acknowledges the problem of using the 121.5, but because of financial constraints there is no alternative. So we as professional (its my profession; hope you don't mind me using the term-I didn't say better-than-GA) pilots just have to row with the punches. Whether we deem it unsafe or not.
That's the bottom line.

klink - out.

[RoyHudd]

Sticks and stones.

Right on Klink...this is the land of political correctness, where one must respect the opinions of all minorities, no matter how wrong or crass they may be. (e.g 146 crew being breathalysed after firm landing at MAN after a passenger cpmplained to the police about obviously drunk pilots!)

This is PPL's (let's say non-professionals) using their "rights" to hog a Professional Pilot's website, and take the opportunity to slag us off should we dare to write pro-based opinions. Admittedly some of the air-trafficers are PPL holders too, and their points are more clearly valid.

Things ain't going to change quickly around here, I regret to opine. WE have to listen, acknowledge, and shut up.

Better start another website, just to allow us some privacy. Please. Ciao.

[Diddley Dee]

Roy

These pages arent private so will get read by others and as Humans we all feel the need to react at times as did I. Its the manner in which some people appear to post their opinions that rub people up the wrong way. This thread at times seems to have taken the tone of "if you are GA & you do PP calls on 121.5 then you are an idiot as its not for that.... why? because I say so".

This topic rumbles on & on and the problem has been around for years, Do you have any evidence to show where PPs on 121.5 have contributed to a flight safety critcal incident? The problem (yes I do agree there is one, but not one that is not manageable) with the present system has been around for years, its just the personalities that complain about it that change.

Diddley Dee

[DFC]

Originally Posted by DeeCee

This is not about Vietnam and it is not about flying anywhere else other than the UK. This is about flying in cluttered airspace. I am amazed at the attitudes of some of the supposedly professional pilots. You are just sounding off in an ignorant fashion.
D & D themselves say that there is not a problem. What's the matter, can't you read?

Did you not learn about VHF range or how far away an aircraft at 35,000 has to be so as not to hear a transmission from another aircraft at 4000ft.

The practice pans interfere with aircraft and ground stations outside the UK.

AOPA's latest mag has an article describing how they represented two pilots who were brought to task by the CAA for infringing london's controlled airspace. To quote "Instructors - we're not teaching the use of 121.5 properly. It is not just for use in emergency".

Did that person not think that he should have said instructors were not teaching navigation properly and that pilots must keep sensible margins from the boundary of controlled airspace when planning a flight.

121.50 is most definitely the emergency frequency for use in emergency.

Originally Posted by DeeCee

If we sat on our butts all day & just handled actual emergencies you could go for weeks without talking to an ac. Would you trust me to get someone out of the poo having not dealt with any traffic for some considerable time..... No neither would I.

Thank God that the other 1000s of controllers in hundreds of FIRs throughout the world can be relied upon to go for months without an emergency and then be 100% trusted to help get someone out of the poo.

D+D need to get themselves a PC sim and some imaginative instructors who can simulate various scenarios more realistically than some C150 doing a practice pan that will only be brief and will only be done in VDF or radar coverage. Do you do practice pans with aircraft outside VDF and radar coverage?

Your point seems to say that lost of practice in fixing positions of light aircraft operating VFR is required. Heavy types with 400 pax and complicated emergencies and in need of special handling do not require any practice at all?

I do not teach the use of 121.50 other than as an emergency frequency used when no help is available on the current frequency.

Prior Planning Prevents Pss Poor Performance and the reliance on 121.50 as a navigation crutch.

Regards,

DFC