Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok. It is good to ignore all the concerns raised here.
All rubbish. Clog up 121.5
Guys, are you bored up there during the cruise? Can't get your mind around another sudoku? Give them boys at D&D a call on 121.5. Practice those PANS! It's all right by them. Let's see just how far they can triangulate. Maybe we'll raise the total airtime to 2%. Get them some overtime pay.
All rubbish. Clog up 121.5
Guys, are you bored up there during the cruise? Can't get your mind around another sudoku? Give them boys at D&D a call on 121.5. Practice those PANS! It's all right by them. Let's see just how far they can triangulate. Maybe we'll raise the total airtime to 2%. Get them some overtime pay.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Do we practice calling 112? Try that and they'll send real cops after you!
No we don't (the equivalent number in the UK is 999) and they send the cops because its illegal, because they don't want you to do it.
We practice training fixes and pans on 121.5, because (a) it's legal and (b) they want us to. So no cops, because it is a different scenario.
Each national authority tends to take different views and as pilots, we have to respect that, even if we disagree.
I don't like the ways the US uses land and hold short clearances, but if I choose to fly there, then I have to accept it as a constraint.
If you choose to fly in the UK, you must accept our national authorities procedures.
No we don't (the equivalent number in the UK is 999) and they send the cops because its illegal, because they don't want you to do it.
We practice training fixes and pans on 121.5, because (a) it's legal and (b) they want us to. So no cops, because it is a different scenario.
Each national authority tends to take different views and as pilots, we have to respect that, even if we disagree.
I don't like the ways the US uses land and hold short clearances, but if I choose to fly there, then I have to accept it as a constraint.
If you choose to fly in the UK, you must accept our national authorities procedures.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
112/999, the whole of Europe agreed on 112...what is it with you guys in the UK? 
I give up.
If you do not sense that calling 999 is similar to using 121.5, then there is not much to discuss.
I give up.
If you do not sense that calling 999 is similar to using 121.5, then there is not much to discuss.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Essex
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1957/58 I served my National Service as an Operations Clerk in Air traffic Control at a number of Fighter Command stations.The worse job allocated to us would have been sat in aroom on our own listening out to 121.5.In all that time I only recall one transmission and that was an emergency(a Hunter with undercarraige failure.He banged out)The point I am making is that it was drummed into us that 121.5 was REAL emergency only
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: in the western part of the United State of Europe
Age: 47
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, so since D&D doesn't mind every airliner up to CDG can listen to triangulations of a not-really-lost single engine aircraft somewhere in the UK.
Nice.
121.5 doesn't stop at the edge of the island.
Nice.
121.5 doesn't stop at the edge of the island.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, so since D&D doesn't mind every airliner up to CDG can listen to triangulations of a not-really-lost single engine aircraft somewhere in the UK.
(until they dispense with 121.5.....but I won't go into that)
FBW
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I ask those "professional" pilots who are complaining (not too many I see BTW), what is it that is raising such ire? Is it because it is something which you know you cannot get exclusive use of? Cannot exclude GA and so forth. You already have exclusivity in a lot of airspace in your oft half empty tubes so please don't make such a fuss about a little radio frequency that we all might need to use sometime.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: in the western part of the United State of Europe
Age: 47
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry I can't explain properly the inconvenience caused and the potential problems it might cause one day, so I'll leave it here.
Have fun with practising!
Guest
Posts: n/a
klink
I'm sorry I can't explain properly the inconvenience caused and the potential problems it might cause one day, so I'll leave it here.
Maybe it would be best if you no longer fly in UK airspace? Because our national authority do not agree with you.
And they make the rules.
And you must comply.
Have a nice life.
I'm sorry I can't explain properly the inconvenience caused and the potential problems it might cause one day, so I'll leave it here.
Maybe it would be best if you no longer fly in UK airspace? Because our national authority do not agree with you.
And they make the rules.
And you must comply.
Have a nice life.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
D & D is unique in that it is a dedicated service one of the few in the world.
The UK authorities deem that it is acceptable for UK pilots to practice calling D & D in simulated emergencies.
In my 18 years as a PPL I have made one practice call whilst on my own and one position uncertain call a year or two later.
In the real case, I had no hesitation in putting in the call to D & D knowing what the response is like in both style and TONE.
Within 3 minutes I was sorted. I have never had to call again but would not hesitate to do if I had to.
This is in contrast to some ATS units where nothing in the world would make me chose to talk to some of the condesending and smug t*ats who operate them.
Anyway to ensure we retain D & D they need to show they perform a useful service and GA calls underpin the demand. Of course, the airlines do not fund D&D so do not control it like they do with NATS.
I am sure the D & D guys would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.
The UK authorities deem that it is acceptable for UK pilots to practice calling D & D in simulated emergencies.
In my 18 years as a PPL I have made one practice call whilst on my own and one position uncertain call a year or two later.
In the real case, I had no hesitation in putting in the call to D & D knowing what the response is like in both style and TONE.
Within 3 minutes I was sorted. I have never had to call again but would not hesitate to do if I had to.
This is in contrast to some ATS units where nothing in the world would make me chose to talk to some of the condesending and smug t*ats who operate them.
Anyway to ensure we retain D & D they need to show they perform a useful service and GA calls underpin the demand. Of course, the airlines do not fund D&D so do not control it like they do with NATS.
I am sure the D & D guys would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chrisbl
...would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the practice calls are so important then how come a large number of UK training organisations are not in a position to make such calls. It is only the SE 1/5 of the UK airspace thas has any decent VHF autotriangulation. Thus only a very limited number of organisations do this poractice rubbish.
One of the earlier comments sums up the problem. .......I got lost doing visual nav so I asked for a training fix to find out where I was (hiding the fact of being lost) and then learned how to use VOR etc.......
How about corectly learning how to navigate visually.
Let me see........the UK needs a super dooper fixer service on 121.50 with lots of practice calls because pilots are always getting lost and infringing some critical airspace or the other but only in the south east of the country.
They also love flying into cloud and killing themselves so a special IMC rating is required which mixes public ransport operations with non-qualified pilots flying in IMC who are not trained or tested to fly a hold and are very limited in what they can actually do in IMC.
Those than can't obtain an aviation medical can go to their GP provided they are fit enought to drive a car, they too can mix it with public transport operations in controlled airspace in an aircraft with uncertified and unchecked essential equipment such as altimeters
Is it me or is there a sense of crutches being handed out to toppling patients?
Why does no where else practice on 121.50, why does nowhere else have an IMC rating, why does no where else allow pilots to fly with only the medical standard of as typical aged car driver?
Cause they are all wrong. The UK is always right. That why they always do it their way!
Regards,
DFC
One of the earlier comments sums up the problem. .......I got lost doing visual nav so I asked for a training fix to find out where I was (hiding the fact of being lost) and then learned how to use VOR etc.......
How about corectly learning how to navigate visually.
Let me see........the UK needs a super dooper fixer service on 121.50 with lots of practice calls because pilots are always getting lost and infringing some critical airspace or the other but only in the south east of the country.
They also love flying into cloud and killing themselves so a special IMC rating is required which mixes public ransport operations with non-qualified pilots flying in IMC who are not trained or tested to fly a hold and are very limited in what they can actually do in IMC.
Those than can't obtain an aviation medical can go to their GP provided they are fit enought to drive a car, they too can mix it with public transport operations in controlled airspace in an aircraft with uncertified and unchecked essential equipment such as altimeters
Is it me or is there a sense of crutches being handed out to toppling patients?
Why does no where else practice on 121.50, why does nowhere else have an IMC rating, why does no where else allow pilots to fly with only the medical standard of as typical aged car driver?
Cause they are all wrong. The UK is always right. That why they always do it their way!
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holland
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The UK has a long-standing Difference filed with ICAO for the use of 121.5 MHz as a Practice Emergency Training Frequency (PETF)
sure.
keep driving on the wrong side of the road
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[It is only the SE 1/5 of the UK airspace thas has any decent VHF autotriangulation. Thus only a very limited number of organisations do this poractice rubbish
FBW
Guest
Posts: n/a
DFC
I can only say that your last post takes the art of polemic to rabid levels, as well as misrepresenting the facts of my post.
1 - I didn't get lost, I was unable to satisfactorily confirm ded reckoning by pilotage at a waypoint due to sun/haze - could only see one line feature and could not triangulate - if you cannot understand the difference between being unable to confirm your exact position and being lost, you are a fool
2 - Even at 70 hours, I had enough airmanship to realise that an airspace bust was a possibility, without further action
2 - My training fix call was an appropriate use of the service
3 - I acted within the ANO and didn't bust controlled airspace
4 - I learned that visual nav and sun/haze was not a good combination and took extra training to ensure I was better prepared
So, in conclusion, I didn't break any laws, didn't cause any flights to take avoiding action, used the service as recommended by the national authority and then topped up my knowledge to avoid a repetition in the next 12 years.
And you have the temerity and arrogance to make your last post.
Capt Airprox and others take a far more sensible line
I can only say that your last post takes the art of polemic to rabid levels, as well as misrepresenting the facts of my post.
1 - I didn't get lost, I was unable to satisfactorily confirm ded reckoning by pilotage at a waypoint due to sun/haze - could only see one line feature and could not triangulate - if you cannot understand the difference between being unable to confirm your exact position and being lost, you are a fool
2 - Even at 70 hours, I had enough airmanship to realise that an airspace bust was a possibility, without further action
2 - My training fix call was an appropriate use of the service
3 - I acted within the ANO and didn't bust controlled airspace
4 - I learned that visual nav and sun/haze was not a good combination and took extra training to ensure I was better prepared
So, in conclusion, I didn't break any laws, didn't cause any flights to take avoiding action, used the service as recommended by the national authority and then topped up my knowledge to avoid a repetition in the next 12 years.
And you have the temerity and arrogance to make your last post.
Capt Airprox and others take a far more sensible line
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chrisbl
D & D is unique in that it is a dedicated service one of the few in the world.
Anyway to ensure we retain D & D they need to show they perform a useful service and GA calls underpin the demand. Of course, the airlines do not fund D&D so do not control it like they do with NATS.
I am sure the D & D guys would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.
Anyway to ensure we retain D & D they need to show they perform a useful service and GA calls underpin the demand. Of course, the airlines do not fund D&D so do not control it like they do with NATS.
I am sure the D & D guys would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.
As a former holder of a D&D licence I can say with authority that 95% of the time the dedicated D&D controllers sit around twiddling their thumbs bored to tears. So any sort of 'action' is welcome but you have to be careful what you wish for
My 'worst' incorrect use of 121.5 was of a flight heading West across the ocean where they transmitted the usual 'Welcome on board, our flight time blah blah', took about 2 minutes.
BD
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DFC
If the practice calls are so important then how come a large number of UK training organisations are not in a position to make such calls. It is only the SE 1/5 of the UK airspace thas has any decent VHF autotriangulation. Thus only a very limited number of organisations do this poractice rubbish.
Let me see........the UK needs a super dooper fixer service on 121.50 with lots of practice calls because pilots are always getting lost and infringing some critical airspace or the other but only in the south east of the country.
They also love flying into cloud and killing themselves so a special IMC rating is required which mixes public ransport operations with non-qualified pilots flying in IMC who are not trained or tested to fly a hold and are very limited in what they can actually do in IMC.
Those than can't obtain an aviation medical can go to their GP provided they are fit enought to drive a car, they too can mix it with public transport operations in controlled airspace in an aircraft with uncertified and unchecked essential equipment such as altimeters
Let me see........the UK needs a super dooper fixer service on 121.50 with lots of practice calls because pilots are always getting lost and infringing some critical airspace or the other but only in the south east of the country.
They also love flying into cloud and killing themselves so a special IMC rating is required which mixes public ransport operations with non-qualified pilots flying in IMC who are not trained or tested to fly a hold and are very limited in what they can actually do in IMC.
Those than can't obtain an aviation medical can go to their GP provided they are fit enought to drive a car, they too can mix it with public transport operations in controlled airspace in an aircraft with uncertified and unchecked essential equipment such as altimeters
BTW Auto-Triang is available in the whole of the London FIR. Its only not available in the Scottish FIR. The original reason was cost. There are very few 121.5 receivers in Scotland and it covers a very large area. Coverage in the London FIR is much better AND its where the vast majority of 'Practice Pans' occur.
BD