Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)

[WorkingHard]

Just a few "Professional" pilots here with a holier than thou attitude. Such attitude such not exist.
E.g, "There are hardly no intentional calls from Professional pilots on guard. And yes, sometimes you make a mistake. But that is already contaminating the frequeny enough." from KLINK. If that is the case then the number of UNINTENTIONAL calls suggests a very serious training problem exists. Like a lot of things in aviation the CAT people (only just a few of course) seems to think everything is there for their exclusive use and benefit. IT JUST AINT SO. Get off your high horses and accept it.

[klink]

Hey!
Don't attack me like that!
I simply got taught 121.5 was holy. point.
I know plenty people say hi or whatever, but certainly airline pilots should know better. With proffessional I meant "serious" pilots, i.e. serious ppl pilots as well of course.
This was not intended at all to say airline pilots are better than ppl; the only thing I mean is that in my opinion 121.5 should only be used in actual cases of distress.
Not for training and not to tell the other company aircraft to call his operations.

[PENKO]

The D&D repport is slightly misleading us all by stating that practice PANS take up only 1% of AIR TIME, whereas 75% of CALLS are mistakes by commercial pilots. This is comparing apples with oranges. Why?


This is how a tippical commercial pilot sounds on 121.5
com pilot 1:Maintanance good day, it's the XXX215.
com pilot 2: You are on GUAAAAAAARD
com pilot 1: ...
or
controller: XXX215, if you hear me call London on 129.000

Very simple stuff, easily filtered out of your mind.


Now the practice pan.
student: uuuhhh..Pra...uhhh, PPPractice PAN, P-ractice PAN, PRACTice PAN!
......GOLF....

ALFA
.....CH...uuuh...BRAVO...

DELTA,
.....
CHARLIE
...............................from BLABLABLABLABLA, YEPYEP uuuhh....to YEPYEPYEP, BLABLAYEP...uuhhh.. Cessnah Etcetera, etcetera. Temporary unawhere of my position

This stuff is pervasive, even with the best selective attention you cannot filter this out! So by this time every single pilot is poking at the volume knobs or even deselecting 121.500 completely. And the controller hasn't even begun to speak yet.

So, yes, it may well be just 1% of AIR TIME, but a very distracting one at that.

And to be clear, I am honestly not trying to make fun of student pilots. All commercial pilots have been there at some point in their life. But it is only in the UK where PANS are being practiced live for everyone to hear. Why not put more effort into an afternoon lesson in basic VOR fixes?

[RoyHudd]

121.5

Agreed, no place for lost PPL's....sorry but they should have other freq's for that already dialled up.

Adding to the thread, what about the French mis-use of 121.5? They are a notorious nationality for R/T in aviation. So I guess this is just another minor offence to add to the list of French mis-demeanours, but I do find it worrying that I keep having to de-select 121.5 when routing through l'Hexagon, just to silence the chat that blocks the emergency frequency.

[yeoman]

As an instructor a few years back it was a part of the syllabus to do a practice PAN. To a degree, it was also a bit of an a##e covering exercise prior to signing the guy out on his/her first solo cross country!

The stuttering call alluded to above was avoided by thorough briefing, getting him/her to practice it in a little room away from sniggering idiots, a demo from me on a flight and then let them try it. It dug at least two of my students out of the brown and smelly (guess I wasn't too hot on teaching Nav).

Let's get away from GA bad, Commercial good. Yes, it's a minor distraction but IMHO the benefits far outweigh the loss. Also, FWIW, could Le CAA Francais please publicise the use of 123.45? The abuse of 121.5 is rampant there. As for Commercial Finger Trouble? Who hasn't done it?

So it's only me then. I'll get my coat.

[yeoman]

Roy just beat me to it re the French!

As for a separate frequency or using the one you are on, 121.5 has much wider coverage and is linked to all the gear for locating these guys by triangulation. A normal ATS frequency could only give a bearing and not fix you on that line. Neck fully extended here, any expert able to elaborate?

There are also several well documented cases of light aircraft ever descending to stay out of cloud and their cries for help only being heard by Big Metal Drivers who could relay. The common frequency possibly saved lives, GA pilot or not is irrelevant at that point in time.

[WorkingHard]

KLINK - it was not meant to be personal. My sincere apologies if you felt it so. Penko, can we please remember that if we wish to use statitics then LESS than 10% of ALL aircraft movements in the UK is commercial air transport and yet it accounts for 75% of all call on 121.50. What does that say about professionalism? It is as someone said earlier like comparing apples with oranges but when one section of the aviation community (the minority one by the way) starts to "have a go" at another then expect a robust defence. I am a GA pilot using the skies of Europe for mostly business. I take criticism seriously and try and learn from it not just respond in kind.

[Final 3 Greens]

Roy Hudd

Agreed, no place for lost PPL's....sorry but they should have other freq's for that already dialled up.

Sorry, but that is the most idiotic comment I have read for a long time.

Please the FDCOM on the first post and note the CAA conclusion.

If you aren't professional enough to accept the rules/guidance of the UK authority, maybe its time to retrain for a different career.

[yeoman]

If security is the concern then maybe the time has come for a stand alone Security Guard frequency? We can all listen to the calls to CircusAir and Maintrol on that as well.

[Final 3 Greens]

Yeoman

I believe that the real issue here is the difference filed by the UK authority, which clearly causes irritation to the CAT world and I can understand why this is the case, especially for commercial pilots who did not train in the UK and do not experience practice pans and training fixes in other air space.

Unfortunately (and the FDCOM is clear about this), there is no great probability of a discrete frequency being made available for GA pilots to practice fixes.

So we are uncomfortable bed fellows on the same frequency and this is a constraint for both heavy iron and bug smashers, since commercial pilots understandably do not like the distraction and we, in the GA community, feel under attack for using a facility that our national authority actively encourages us to use and which has a real utility to GA pilots and controllers.

Until a discrete frequency can be found, I guess that we will both have to do our best to co-exist.

[underread east]

Guys,

During my training, my flight schoool organised a trip to visit LATCC and D&D, where they (D&D) actively enchoraged us to call them - even for a practice - so that we wouldn't feel nervous about using them for real. Having been warned about abusing 121.5 by our intructors, their words were indeed comforting. Castigating trainee airmen and women for their use of 121.5 is unfair. I now sit RHS of a jet, and on the few occasions that I hear practice Pans on guard remind of the presence and value of D&D for all. We were all down there once and I am sure we ALL made use of this service, and called a Practice to hide the fact we really were lost, sorry, temporarilly(sp?!) unsure of position. Give em a break.

[xetroV]

Originally Posted by WorkingHard

Penko, can we please remember that if we wish to use statitics then LESS than 10% of ALL aircraft movements in the UK is commercial air transport and yet it accounts for 75% of all call on 121.50. What does that say about professionalism?

Not much, actually. It does say much about the design of radio control panels, though, and of operational practices. The most common mistake by airline pilots when it comes to 121.5 is transmitting company communications on this channel (as said earlier, this usually isn't half as distracting as the practice calls, since such mistakes are usually quickly discovered and corrected), and that's simply because guard monitoring and company communications are done with the same radio box, and because guard, company, ATIS, PA, intercom (cabin, ground crew), and ATC (perhaps even multiple VHF and HF channels simultaneously) are all controlled by the same radio panel with identical buttons for all these tasks.

Now how many PA calls do you think a PPL driver will commonly make during a flight? How many company calls? Cabin attendant calls via the intercom? How many HF clearances will he need to read back? How often will a PPL pilot operate on multiple frequencies simultaneously? Will he ever need to talk to a ground engineer by intercom? If I were you, I'd be a lot more careful before accusing others from comparing apples with oranges. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that if on average 0.1% of all transmissions by all pilots go wrong, this is obviously much more likely to happen to an airline pilot than a PPLer. That's got nothing to do with professionalism or training deficiencies, it's purely a matter of us (you too, I presume?) being human.

Mistakes are enough of a problem already, but that's what they are: mistakes. Intentional misuse of the guard frequency is an altogether different story, and there we can talk about professionalism, by PPL and professional pilots alike. I'd say asking other traffic to switch to a company channel or 123.45 doesn't fall into this category, but chattering over channel 121.5 directly surely does. Some general aviation areas are notorious for this kind of behaviour, but so are some airline pilots.

I won't call practice pan calls 'misuse' of the guard frequency, but I do think the system is flawed. Since this system only exists in the UK, perhaps it's time to take a look at how the rest of the world deals with the issue of assisting VFR traffic. Someone already mentioned Dutch Mil; I can only confirm that they do provide an excellent service, without the need to 'pollute' 121.5 with practice calls.

Changing well-established practices isn't easy, but the problem of aircrews being distracted by non-essential communications on guard is very real. Many cases of lost communications could have been prevented if pilots had not turned down the volume on their radio box because of such distractions. This is a serious issue, and just asking pilots to be more vigilent when transmitting and to always listen out on guard is not going to solve the problem. Any real solutions that could help, such as designating a discrete frequency for practice pans, should be considered seriously.

Unfortunately, that FOD 2006/08 article does nothing to solve the issue, other than repeating the obvious:

3 Recommendation 3.1: Operators should ensure that their crews are reminded of the proper use of frequency 121.5 MHz.

Like, duh!

[overstress]

overstress

Listen out

D'oh! Sorry, Radar, was v 'tired' when I posted that!

FMPOV, chatter on 121.5 forces me to turn down 'box 2' so I don't miss anything on 1.

[Faire d'income]

When I read the title of this thread I thought great finally something might be done about this.

Then I read the report and am bitterly disappointed with it. Inevitably the thread then became a GA v Commercial feud. The analysis is misleading and smacks of a vested interest.

Firstly there is a serious problem with using the emergency frequency as a practice facility whether or not the report acknowledges it. Can you imagine an ER or an A&E allowing first aid courses to be carried out in an operating emergency room?

Secondly this is not merely a UK problem as the practise pans can be picked up by our high flying friends well outside UK airspace. This also helps to tilt the stats against the Commercial outfits as a crew in french airsace accidentally transmitting on guard can be picked up in the UK.

No other country allows this ridiculous practise. Why not? Commercial crews should of course be more vigilant to prevent accidental use but some errors are inevitable. That is no justification for allowing the frequency to be blocked by trainees.

This practise may cause a serious problem one day when some unfortunate crew go silent for whatever reason and have 121.5 turned down in the UK ( as I usually do ). Throw in a few unforseen circumstances and .......

Again I state this is not about GA v anyone else. It is about safety and security and both groups have their responsibilities.

[WorkingHard]

XtroV - I cant disagree with anything you say. I was really "defending my corner" against what i perceive to be unwarranted slurs. As Faire d'income and others have said we all need to learn from the survey and stop the them and us attitudes that seem to prevail.

[Kiltie]

There still seems to be an age-old misconception here that 123.45 is a "chat" frequency. This may be the case Oceanic, but over the UK this frequency is allocated to an offshore helicopter company's ops.

[ShyTorque]

Not at all surprised to see the stats found during the investigation into perceived "misuse" of 121.5 for training fixes.

Had an argument with a certain moderator a while back, who said he was going to complain and campaign the CAA about this very subject. I notice he's keeping a low profile at the moment.......

[Final 3 Greens]

Faire D'income

No other country allows this ridiculous practise. Why not?

Perhaps because every country has its own favorite ridiculous practices?

Again I state this is not about GA v anyone else. It is about safety and security and both groups have their responsibilities.

Fair point, but I can imagine a student or low hour PPL having tea and biccies with the CAA enforcement branch about why s/he busted controlled airspace and being asked to justify not calling for a training fix - difficult to answer that one.

A discrete frequency for GA practice pans and training fixes would seem to be the answer, but the mood music doesn't sound promising.

[mad_jock]

Well I have a had 3 requests to do practise pans from Scottish area to use 121.5.

They asked if we would help then told us that our transponder was knackard when we were asked to squawk by the controller.

Went onto 121.5 and played the game. To be honest it was quite good training for us as well. Only had one "your on guard" which was instantly answered by a gruff sounding bloke from D&D thanking him for interupting a controller training exercise.

And although using commercial pilots for there training exercises it still can't give the controller the full experence of trying to deal with an inexperenced pilot who is pooing themselves. And I should imagine that a student on a nav ex with an instructor forcing them to do a practise Pan will simulate the situation quite nicely.

Its up to D&D to decide whats acceptable or unacceptable for the emergency frequency to be used for. The fact that they request aircraft via other agencys to give practise pans seems to suggest that there isn't enough calls to satisfy there training requirements. Its a two way thing D&D proberly get as much out of the practise as the pilot. It also allows them to see any black spots in the coverage. And the moan about we won't be able to hear a intercept call from the mil is quite frankly bollocks. A 5 watt transmitter 2 miles away you won't even know that there is a practise pan is going on. They will know you are being intercepted though.

Anyway if the new ideas come to pass about having a constant cycle of RT testing for everyone, D&D can maybe get there point across through the examiners for CAT to accept that its the way D&D want it.

edited to add

Faire d'income actually you are incorrect to say that first aid courses arn't taught in A&E departments and OR's. The diving medics and also army combat medics all go through a course of ground school followed by a period of on the job training. Which is done live on civ's in A&E deptments around the UK under supervision. A bit like you guessed it A practise pan with an instructor sitting next to them. There are many storys about people kicking off on saturday nights in A&E deptments trying to get drugs etc and suddenly being confronted by some hairy arsed beast who has a secondary qualification in battlefield medic after their primary qualification of being one of auntie Betty's finest SF troopers.

[PENKO]

Originally Posted by WorkingHard

XtroV - I cant disagree with anything you say. I was really "defending my corner" against what i perceive to be unwarranted slurs. As Faire d'income and others have said we all need to learn from the survey and stop the them and us attitudes that seem to prevail.

Working hard, as I tried to explain in my post, it is not my intention to air 'unwarranted slurs'. I was just showing how utterly distracting these PAN calls can be compared to erroneous calls to operations. If it makes you feel better...if a superduper commercial pilot would do his PA on 121.5 it would be the same kind of distraction. However they usually do this on the active fequency, and we all have a laugh. (mind you, this only takes up about 0,000005% of air time)