Longest flight by burning plane
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Wartime crew-wise, I recall that the Randy Cunningham/Willie Driscoll crew of an F4J Phantom from US Navy fighter squadron VF-96 flew while on fire for several minutes and several dozen miles over North Vietnam on May 21, 1972 after being hit by an SA-2 SAM. Their point? Getting "feet wet" and being picked up by US, rather than N. Vietnamese, SAR. They eventually ejected when the Phantom lost all hydraulics. (They were also credited with three MIG kills in the previous minutes, making them the first aces of the Vietnam war).
On the opening day of the first Gulf War in Jan 1991, a French AF 11eme Escadre de Chasse Jaguar came all the way back from a raid on al Jaber air base in Kuwait to Saudi Arabia with part of the rear fuselage on fire, keeping the speed up on the one remaining engine so that the flames would not creep up the fuselage. He landed successfully at a USMC airfield (can't remember the name) in northern Saudi, where the fire crews put the fire out. The plane was reportedly a write-off - but not listed as a loss since it was brought back by its pilot.
Cheers
On the opening day of the first Gulf War in Jan 1991, a French AF 11eme Escadre de Chasse Jaguar came all the way back from a raid on al Jaber air base in Kuwait to Saudi Arabia with part of the rear fuselage on fire, keeping the speed up on the one remaining engine so that the flames would not creep up the fuselage. He landed successfully at a USMC airfield (can't remember the name) in northern Saudi, where the fire crews put the fire out. The plane was reportedly a write-off - but not listed as a loss since it was brought back by its pilot.
Cheers
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There was a Federal Experess DC-10 which landed at Stewart Airport in Newburg, NY back in September of 1996. The aircraft was at cruise altitude (FL 330) travelling from Memphis to Boston when smoke alarms in the cockpit went off signalling a fire in the cargo area. It took about 19 minutes to get the plane on the ground, and the crew used the emergency egress cables to escape out of the cockpit windows. Fortunately there were no fatalities. Flames broke through the fuselage within a minute of them touching down. The plane burned itself in half on the runway. If they were airborne for just two more minutes, they probably would not have made it.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1998/AAR9803.pdf#search='dc10%20newburgh%20fire'
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1998/AAR9803.pdf#search='dc10%20newburgh%20fire'
Mr. Winterland: About that RAF Nimrod, is it true that a crewmember saw a the metal above some engine inlets glowing from the internal fire?
Some serious mistakes made onboard the Air Canada DC-9 were when a pilot reset a popped (lavatory motor) circuit breaker at least twice. This supposedly allowed an overload to trigger the fire.
How about an engine fire warning above 80-100 knots on the takeoff roll?
Would you abort at this speed, even if you took a glance and noticed all engines indicating full, stable thrust?
Do you brief that the non-flying pilot should quickly cancel the bell, especially if very loud?
This could be a very hot bleed air leak-but no fire.
Some serious mistakes made onboard the Air Canada DC-9 were when a pilot reset a popped (lavatory motor) circuit breaker at least twice. This supposedly allowed an overload to trigger the fire.
How about an engine fire warning above 80-100 knots on the takeoff roll?
Would you abort at this speed, even if you took a glance and noticed all engines indicating full, stable thrust?
Do you brief that the non-flying pilot should quickly cancel the bell, especially if very loud?
This could be a very hot bleed air leak-but no fire.
Originally Posted by Ignition Override
Mr. Winterland: About that RAF Nimrod, is it true that a crewmember saw a the metal above some engine inlets glowing from the internal fire?
Some serious mistakes made onboard the Air Canada DC-9 were when a pilot reset a popped (lavatory motor) circuit breaker at least twice. This supposedly allowed an overload to trigger the fire.
How about an engine fire warning above 80-100 knots on the takeoff roll?
Would you abort at this speed, even if you took a glance and noticed all engines indicating full, stable thrust?
Do you brief that the non-flying pilot should quickly cancel the bell, especially if very loud?
This could be a very hot bleed air leak-but no fire.
Some serious mistakes made onboard the Air Canada DC-9 were when a pilot reset a popped (lavatory motor) circuit breaker at least twice. This supposedly allowed an overload to trigger the fire.
How about an engine fire warning above 80-100 knots on the takeoff roll?
Would you abort at this speed, even if you took a glance and noticed all engines indicating full, stable thrust?
Do you brief that the non-flying pilot should quickly cancel the bell, especially if very loud?
This could be a very hot bleed air leak-but no fire.
Below 400ft AGL one of the main actions of the PNF is to cancel any aural warning.
There was a fashion in our airline to brief that if we had a difficulty and got airborne then we could "teardrop" back on the the runway rather than going down wind. The then Fleet Manager had to put out an e-mail stating that this was not SOP and that we should not be briefing this. He then went on to say that the one of the only things that would scare him enough to make this maneuver would be an uncontained cabin fire. I tend to agree with him.
A stop at v1 with any fire warning is, IMHO, the safest thing to do. The fire brigade can only put it out if you put it on the ground!
We say that you have about 14min to but a burning aircraft on the ground, it could be longer, but it could be less!
As for what it could be, base your actions on what you KNOW not on what you THINK you might know.
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Some very good discussion here...please keep it coming. My 2p worth:
1. ETOPS is irrelevant with an uncontrollable cabin/cargo fire. It takes alot longer to get down than you have a available, even if the perfect airport is right there waiting for (which is seldom the case, outside perhaps Europe or the USA)
2. The FEDEX guys getting down in 19mins from FL330 is incredible!
3. Dan Winterlands example of the RAF Nimrod sets the standard. These guys had 4 engines, and a wing route fire. There were less than 15nm from 'home' and the elected to ditch. The main-spar (I understand) was found to be already broken before the hit the water. In short, there would not have made it 'home'.
4. Fires double in size every 20 seconds (food for thought!!)
So the issue really becomes one of 'mindset'.
1. If a fire of any sort breaks out....it has to be all hands to the pump. You have no time. Are your Cabin Crew aware of just how serious it can be? They might not be time to don fire fighting equipment!
2. Are you prepared mentally to ditch or land on the nearest thing that resembles an airport and accepting (for the rest of your life) the consequences of that decision?
*****Because thats what you get paid the big bucks for......making the decisions; no matter how ugly
*Ref the Ethiopean ditching, the skipper was in fact being beaten on the top of his head, by a hijacker, with a bottle of booze at the time of the ditching. I think we can forgive him for not being perfectly wings level
1. ETOPS is irrelevant with an uncontrollable cabin/cargo fire. It takes alot longer to get down than you have a available, even if the perfect airport is right there waiting for (which is seldom the case, outside perhaps Europe or the USA)
2. The FEDEX guys getting down in 19mins from FL330 is incredible!
3. Dan Winterlands example of the RAF Nimrod sets the standard. These guys had 4 engines, and a wing route fire. There were less than 15nm from 'home' and the elected to ditch. The main-spar (I understand) was found to be already broken before the hit the water. In short, there would not have made it 'home'.
4. Fires double in size every 20 seconds (food for thought!!)
So the issue really becomes one of 'mindset'.
1. If a fire of any sort breaks out....it has to be all hands to the pump. You have no time. Are your Cabin Crew aware of just how serious it can be? They might not be time to don fire fighting equipment!
2. Are you prepared mentally to ditch or land on the nearest thing that resembles an airport and accepting (for the rest of your life) the consequences of that decision?
*****Because thats what you get paid the big bucks for......making the decisions; no matter how ugly
*Ref the Ethiopean ditching, the skipper was in fact being beaten on the top of his head, by a hijacker, with a bottle of booze at the time of the ditching. I think we can forgive him for not being perfectly wings level
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The Nimrod that ditched in the Moray Firth had suffered a uncontained fire in the wing-root. The crew-member reporting on the fires progress informed the Captain of the upper wing panels peeling away with the fire and the decision was made to ditch only 3 minutes flying time from the nearest airfield. The weather was more or less perfect, with an almost flat calm sea and the aircraft ditched with power on. The Captain said that as the aircraft hit the water there was a violent deceleration and the nose plunged below the surface and everything went black! the aircraft then rose back up to the surface and daylight and then went back down again twice more. The aircraft came to a stop and floated for some time (20mins I believe) despite having broken its back. All the crew members escaped safely and stepped off the wing into the liferafts.
Clearly the calm sea conditions were a major factor in this positive outcome, also the highly trained crew (no pax!) wearing lifejackets and a lightweight jet.
Rightly, the Captain was decorated for his actions in saving his crew.
Clearly the calm sea conditions were a major factor in this positive outcome, also the highly trained crew (no pax!) wearing lifejackets and a lightweight jet.
Rightly, the Captain was decorated for his actions in saving his crew.
Taken from http://www.bosee.com/aviation/videos...-list/crm.html
quote
When a toilet fire started in an Air Canada DC9 at 33,000 feet, the captain assumed that it was minor and decided to continue the flight.
The on board fire went on to become so severe that the flight attendants had to relocate passengers away from thick black smoke at the rear of the aircraft, yet the decision to finally divert the aircraft was not made until 18 minutes after the first indication of the problem.
The aircraft eventually landed 13 minutes after declaring a full emergency, and the crew began to evacuate the passengers. However, 60 seconds after the evacuation started, a severe flash fire erupted, claiming the lives of 23 passengers.
unquote
CBC archives (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-1125...r_canada/clip6) have a clip where the captain and 1st officer are interviewed.
Lastly, this from NTSB
quote
About 1903, eastern daylight time, while en route at flight level 330 (about 33,000 feet m.s.l), the cabin crew discovered smoke in the left aft lavatory. After attempting to extinguish the hidden fire and then contacting air traffic control (ATC) and declaring an emergency, the crew made an emergency descent and ATC vectored flight 797 to the Greater Cincinnati International Airport, Covington, Kentucky.
At 1920:09, eastern daylight time, Flight 797 landed on runway 27L at the Greater Cincinnati International Airport.
unquote
So. It would seem like 17 minutes from FL330 to landing. Unless the Bosee site is talking about a different aircraft, NOT the 31 minutes they imply.
quote
When a toilet fire started in an Air Canada DC9 at 33,000 feet, the captain assumed that it was minor and decided to continue the flight.
The on board fire went on to become so severe that the flight attendants had to relocate passengers away from thick black smoke at the rear of the aircraft, yet the decision to finally divert the aircraft was not made until 18 minutes after the first indication of the problem.
The aircraft eventually landed 13 minutes after declaring a full emergency, and the crew began to evacuate the passengers. However, 60 seconds after the evacuation started, a severe flash fire erupted, claiming the lives of 23 passengers.
unquote
CBC archives (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-1125...r_canada/clip6) have a clip where the captain and 1st officer are interviewed.
Lastly, this from NTSB
quote
About 1903, eastern daylight time, while en route at flight level 330 (about 33,000 feet m.s.l), the cabin crew discovered smoke in the left aft lavatory. After attempting to extinguish the hidden fire and then contacting air traffic control (ATC) and declaring an emergency, the crew made an emergency descent and ATC vectored flight 797 to the Greater Cincinnati International Airport, Covington, Kentucky.
At 1920:09, eastern daylight time, Flight 797 landed on runway 27L at the Greater Cincinnati International Airport.
unquote
So. It would seem like 17 minutes from FL330 to landing. Unless the Bosee site is talking about a different aircraft, NOT the 31 minutes they imply.
Last edited by broadreach; 1st Feb 2006 at 20:11.
