Is contaminated bleed air harmful? YES...
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Vested Interests
For those of you not from the UK you may be interested to learn that Martin Alder who posts as if he is 'BALPA POLICY' is not an elected representative of BALPA, is not the Chairman of their specialsed working group looking into these matters known as the 'AETG' and was a former manager at British Airways.
Therefore please do not take what he says as BALPA policy, but for what it is: The views of one member of BALPA, Chairman of their FSG group who are critised by many BALPA members for their lack of effort on these issues and well known to be a 'non believer' who I am informed did not even bother to attend the BALPA conference.
Some in BALPA have worked very hard on these issues and as a member it disturbs me to see what clearly is alot of infighting within my own association. As I have posted before, a good friend of mine who is now sick from fumes was not given the support BALPA should have given him. This lack of support generated from within the BALPA FSG structure. I suggested he post on PPrune his story but he tells me he would rather not tarnish his union as its does alot of good in other areas.
What is the official BALPA line ?
Therefore please do not take what he says as BALPA policy, but for what it is: The views of one member of BALPA, Chairman of their FSG group who are critised by many BALPA members for their lack of effort on these issues and well known to be a 'non believer' who I am informed did not even bother to attend the BALPA conference.
Some in BALPA have worked very hard on these issues and as a member it disturbs me to see what clearly is alot of infighting within my own association. As I have posted before, a good friend of mine who is now sick from fumes was not given the support BALPA should have given him. This lack of support generated from within the BALPA FSG structure. I suggested he post on PPrune his story but he tells me he would rather not tarnish his union as its does alot of good in other areas.
What is the official BALPA line ?
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Not just the brits
I think that Pprune is a great tool to help talk things over and as my first posting I commend them.
From this thread it may be implied this is purely a British issue but I fly the seven fifty seven for a large US carrier and I am well aware of the oil smell. (got 8000+ hours on it) Also had it on the C-141
Do I write it up:
Hell No
Do I want my pay check:
Hell Us
Should I write it up:
Hell Yes
Do passengers know didly ..... they are being exposed:
Hell No
Dont ask us to write it up when we have Chapter 11 spreading like the plague in the States. I suggest you fit a contaminated air detection system so the guys and gals can just say, hey the gadget acctivated and sure I smelt it.
We say nothing not because we don't care but because pay is king and those who talk WALK.
From this thread it may be implied this is purely a British issue but I fly the seven fifty seven for a large US carrier and I am well aware of the oil smell. (got 8000+ hours on it) Also had it on the C-141
Do I write it up:
Hell No
Do I want my pay check:
Hell Us
Should I write it up:
Hell Yes
Do passengers know didly ..... they are being exposed:
Hell No
Dont ask us to write it up when we have Chapter 11 spreading like the plague in the States. I suggest you fit a contaminated air detection system so the guys and gals can just say, hey the gadget acctivated and sure I smelt it.
We say nothing not because we don't care but because pay is king and those who talk WALK.
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-400 heavy, could you forward details, privately if you like, of who your friend is? I did ask a few days ago, but no answer yet, either publicly or privately. I looked at the BALPA Forum and could not find the release you quote, must have looked under the wrong title, so could you tell us all exactly where it is?
No one in the FSG is elected, all volunteers with lots if time spent doing it, who elect their respective group chairman. so some democracy there! I don't make policy, the NEC does and I have not knowingly contradicted any of the policy they have made. The concerns about getting it right are real, for the very reasons that our American contributor mentions, Big scare, no passengers, no jobs, which is a hell of a price to pay for what may not be an issue at all for most I would say.
I am sure that we all do want answers, but we don't want to cause panic that causes jobs lost for no reason either. This is especially so when the evidence is patchy at best and unfortunately, none so far would meet normal standards for such data to be used as a basis for some pretty fundamantal changes. If that evidence turns up after a programme to capture data has captured it, analysed it and identified the risks and solutions, then solutions will be developed or fitted, mods made etc.
Risk is ever present in all activity and it has to be against that one judges whether this is within an acceptable range or not. After all, jumping in your car, flying an aeroplane , cutting the grass and even sex, all involve risk. It is just determining what the acceptable risk is and controlling it that allows society to function at all.
I assume from your comments that you are in contact with members of the CAQTG and thus know of my non-attendance. this was due to leave, booked as you well know some 8 or 9 months before the conference and some 4 months or so before the conference dates were given. No consultation was made outside of the AETG as it was then over dates, so not surprisng that a number of people could not attend. Were you there?
Non -believer is spoken of as if this were some kind of religious crusade. Sorry, but I and others need some hard facts before acting. Whatever my own feelings may be, I doubt that anyone reading this would thank me for following a gut feel and getting it very wrong for BALPA because I went all emotional not logical. Just like flying itself, you sometimes have to suppress gut feel and initial reaction to get to the bottom of the issue and that is all I want.
No one in the FSG is elected, all volunteers with lots if time spent doing it, who elect their respective group chairman. so some democracy there! I don't make policy, the NEC does and I have not knowingly contradicted any of the policy they have made. The concerns about getting it right are real, for the very reasons that our American contributor mentions, Big scare, no passengers, no jobs, which is a hell of a price to pay for what may not be an issue at all for most I would say.
I am sure that we all do want answers, but we don't want to cause panic that causes jobs lost for no reason either. This is especially so when the evidence is patchy at best and unfortunately, none so far would meet normal standards for such data to be used as a basis for some pretty fundamantal changes. If that evidence turns up after a programme to capture data has captured it, analysed it and identified the risks and solutions, then solutions will be developed or fitted, mods made etc.
Risk is ever present in all activity and it has to be against that one judges whether this is within an acceptable range or not. After all, jumping in your car, flying an aeroplane , cutting the grass and even sex, all involve risk. It is just determining what the acceptable risk is and controlling it that allows society to function at all.
I assume from your comments that you are in contact with members of the CAQTG and thus know of my non-attendance. this was due to leave, booked as you well know some 8 or 9 months before the conference and some 4 months or so before the conference dates were given. No consultation was made outside of the AETG as it was then over dates, so not surprisng that a number of people could not attend. Were you there?
Non -believer is spoken of as if this were some kind of religious crusade. Sorry, but I and others need some hard facts before acting. Whatever my own feelings may be, I doubt that anyone reading this would thank me for following a gut feel and getting it very wrong for BALPA because I went all emotional not logical. Just like flying itself, you sometimes have to suppress gut feel and initial reaction to get to the bottom of the issue and that is all I want.
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Martin
You say there is no evidence, you say I looked at the BALPA Forum and could not find the release you quote, must have looked under the wrong title, so could you tell us all exactly where it is?
Now it all makes, sense. You as Chairman of the BALPA FSG say there is no problem but you don't look at the data, do you?
The release is on the BA part of the BALPA forum, it was posted on: May 7th, 2005, 6:44pm, by Tristan Loraine listed as Boeing 757/767 / NEC / Pool Rep / AETG. Are you not also a BA pilot? How can you miss it?
I notice on the 'General' BALPA Forum you posted the following:
As far as that surveyy done on BA 757 crews goes. Is there a table with de-identified id's of the crews, the hulls and dates etc for analysis? It still seems odd that a mere 100 crew members should get 1500 events, that is 15 each and the rest of the fleet seem to get none. I assume that they are are flight deck crew members or were there cabin crew as well ?If someone got 1 then someone else got 30 and that does seem unusual in terms of statistical spread.
Do you know how many flight crew members total were on the fleet during this period? If cabin crew members are included, how many in total were operating on the fleet at this time?
How is it possible for someone in your position to make such errors, clearly showing you have not attempted to read the paper. I read it from our own website about 4 months ago. As it is published surely we as members should expect that the FSG Chairman might have read it.
You say long term research is needed, crews like my flight training buddy flew the 146 back in the 80s and 20 years later are sick, surely thats a long enough study term?
You attack the NGO AOPIS but surely if unions like ours had done the duty we should have on these difficult issues, the sick from around the world would not have started AOPIS.
I have smelt fumes a few times on the -400 but was on the 757 in the past and glad I left the health issues you care little about.
Thankfully not all in BALPA appear to aggree with you. I am sure PPrune did not set up this forum for BALPA failings to be debated so I will refrain from embarrasing you further, I cannot 'not' vote for you as you are not elected. I will simply vote for the elected reps who do care and do the work:
You say there is no evidence, you say I looked at the BALPA Forum and could not find the release you quote, must have looked under the wrong title, so could you tell us all exactly where it is?
Now it all makes, sense. You as Chairman of the BALPA FSG say there is no problem but you don't look at the data, do you?
The release is on the BA part of the BALPA forum, it was posted on: May 7th, 2005, 6:44pm, by Tristan Loraine listed as Boeing 757/767 / NEC / Pool Rep / AETG. Are you not also a BA pilot? How can you miss it?
I notice on the 'General' BALPA Forum you posted the following:
As far as that surveyy done on BA 757 crews goes. Is there a table with de-identified id's of the crews, the hulls and dates etc for analysis? It still seems odd that a mere 100 crew members should get 1500 events, that is 15 each and the rest of the fleet seem to get none. I assume that they are are flight deck crew members or were there cabin crew as well ?If someone got 1 then someone else got 30 and that does seem unusual in terms of statistical spread.
Do you know how many flight crew members total were on the fleet during this period? If cabin crew members are included, how many in total were operating on the fleet at this time?
How is it possible for someone in your position to make such errors, clearly showing you have not attempted to read the paper. I read it from our own website about 4 months ago. As it is published surely we as members should expect that the FSG Chairman might have read it.
You say long term research is needed, crews like my flight training buddy flew the 146 back in the 80s and 20 years later are sick, surely thats a long enough study term?
You attack the NGO AOPIS but surely if unions like ours had done the duty we should have on these difficult issues, the sick from around the world would not have started AOPIS.
I have smelt fumes a few times on the -400 but was on the 757 in the past and glad I left the health issues you care little about.
Thankfully not all in BALPA appear to aggree with you. I am sure PPrune did not set up this forum for BALPA failings to be debated so I will refrain from embarrasing you further, I cannot 'not' vote for you as you are not elected. I will simply vote for the elected reps who do care and do the work:
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Mr Alder
Perhaps you ignored my post as I'm Cabin Crew!
You want evidence! Then read my post at the bottom of Page 4.
As you will notice the MOR refers to three incidents on the same a/c in 2001 and the investigation progressed under another incident in 2000!
I can assure you that my health has suffered due to this incident.
And I did attend the BALPA Conference!
Perhaps you ignored my post as I'm Cabin Crew!
You want evidence! Then read my post at the bottom of Page 4.
As you will notice the MOR refers to three incidents on the same a/c in 2001 and the investigation progressed under another incident in 2000!
I can assure you that my health has suffered due to this incident.
And I did attend the BALPA Conference!
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No one say that failures never occur! Just how often and how bad . The question that keeps coming up is do you get affected when it is a normal operation and you don't notice any contamination. The one you have described you could clearly notice, so falls well within a failure case scenario and inhalation of smoke is not good anytime, no matter what it is , including cigarettes!
Obvious smoke is abnormal, hence the response, checklists etc. Bearing in mind that cabin fires and electrical fires ar far more frequent, the smoke is also toxic, then the probability is then that most will be more likely to have ill effects from that than engine oil. Does not make the effects any less, but you have to put into perspective the risk of smoke at any time on any flight and smoke fumes from engine defects as a percentage of those.
Whether you are cabin crew or not did not enter my mind.
I cannot comment on the state of your health, that is for you and your doctor to discuss. Of great interest generally in these events is what were the effects on the range of people on-board? There frequently seems to be quite a variation between people to an event and getting to the bottom of that is another urgent requirement, as it will probably affcet the solutions needed. Was that the case in your event?
ps -400 have looked , but still can't find it, send me a link
- I did read it some time ago. However, it still begs the question as how on a broad basis why some had a great number of events, which averaged over the numbers who had them is about 15, but why no one else and why such a concentration? If we ask why, then so will someone else. The CAA did try to make sense of the survey, but the data was incomplete such that it was not possible to draw valid conclusions. That is not to say that those people did not have an event or otherwise, merely that the data was unable to be used in any meaningful way to assist. As the number of ASR\'s or MOR\'s fell well short of the 1500 , then it is unfortunate that more of those which would have supported a better analysis were not filed. That is why we have spent some effort in getting people to report things officialy, so as to get data that can support the case.
Hence the desire to get a survey done that does provide the correct data. With that you have a case, without you don't. As this argument is now circular, no more comments from me on this forum. It has hopefully not been too boring for those of you who stumbled on it by mistake! private messages gratefully received and keep on reporting or we don't get the data!
Obvious smoke is abnormal, hence the response, checklists etc. Bearing in mind that cabin fires and electrical fires ar far more frequent, the smoke is also toxic, then the probability is then that most will be more likely to have ill effects from that than engine oil. Does not make the effects any less, but you have to put into perspective the risk of smoke at any time on any flight and smoke fumes from engine defects as a percentage of those.
Whether you are cabin crew or not did not enter my mind.
I cannot comment on the state of your health, that is for you and your doctor to discuss. Of great interest generally in these events is what were the effects on the range of people on-board? There frequently seems to be quite a variation between people to an event and getting to the bottom of that is another urgent requirement, as it will probably affcet the solutions needed. Was that the case in your event?
ps -400 have looked , but still can't find it, send me a link
- I did read it some time ago. However, it still begs the question as how on a broad basis why some had a great number of events, which averaged over the numbers who had them is about 15, but why no one else and why such a concentration? If we ask why, then so will someone else. The CAA did try to make sense of the survey, but the data was incomplete such that it was not possible to draw valid conclusions. That is not to say that those people did not have an event or otherwise, merely that the data was unable to be used in any meaningful way to assist. As the number of ASR\'s or MOR\'s fell well short of the 1500 , then it is unfortunate that more of those which would have supported a better analysis were not filed. That is why we have spent some effort in getting people to report things officialy, so as to get data that can support the case.
Hence the desire to get a survey done that does provide the correct data. With that you have a case, without you don't. As this argument is now circular, no more comments from me on this forum. It has hopefully not been too boring for those of you who stumbled on it by mistake! private messages gratefully received and keep on reporting or we don't get the data!
Last edited by Martin Alder; 10th May 2005 at 20:34.
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Martin Alder British Airways manger or BALPA spokesman or both, it seems he appears to be all bent on trying to convince us fumes are a rare event and nothing to worry about, nearly as much as an industry spoksman would.
He tells us that Bearing in mind that cabin fires and electrical fires ar far more frequent, he has never had a fume event or that cutting the grass or having sex involve risk.
To me as a a pilot and graduate with a first in psychology these comments WORRY ME!!
NOWHERE have I read anything from Mr Alder and therefore BALPA (as he is the BALPA FSG Chairman and I am certain he would not be posting this if not endorsed by those upstairs in BALPA) on this thread to show that BALPA has any condolences for its sick crew members or the families who now no doubt live daily with the consequences of fumes on their partners, any care for his members health or any support for those who seek change.
He clearly paints a BALPA that does not care, is uninterested in protecting its members health and puts industry profit over health and carrers.
He clearly has not read any of the published data.
THANKFULLY AS IPA / IPF MEMBER AND DON'T HAVE PEOPLE LIKE MR ALDER / BALPA LOOKING AFTER MY WELFARE.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK PHIL!
He tells us that Bearing in mind that cabin fires and electrical fires ar far more frequent, he has never had a fume event or that cutting the grass or having sex involve risk.
To me as a a pilot and graduate with a first in psychology these comments WORRY ME!!
NOWHERE have I read anything from Mr Alder and therefore BALPA (as he is the BALPA FSG Chairman and I am certain he would not be posting this if not endorsed by those upstairs in BALPA) on this thread to show that BALPA has any condolences for its sick crew members or the families who now no doubt live daily with the consequences of fumes on their partners, any care for his members health or any support for those who seek change.
He clearly paints a BALPA that does not care, is uninterested in protecting its members health and puts industry profit over health and carrers.
He clearly has not read any of the published data.
THANKFULLY AS IPA / IPF MEMBER AND DON'T HAVE PEOPLE LIKE MR ALDER / BALPA LOOKING AFTER MY WELFARE.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK PHIL!
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Dear Tony Bonzo not wishing to leave readers with another assumption about me and a mistaken faith in the acccuracy of your statements etc. Obviously as a phsychology graduate you are aware of how your misquoting and good old political answering one question with a totally different answer can leave readers with an impression of something that was actually never stated, but twisted to suit your needs, not anyone else's!
No one talked about the touchy feely stuff. It was not a debate on whether anyone here actually had any sympathy for or, with somone who is ill from whatever effects. Of course everyone is, but it does not change why they are ill.
The views were mine, if you want a BALPA view join up and go to the BALPA site. If you want to recruit for another association, that is your privilege, but wild accusations about BALPA are unreasonable.
Just the same about my past, I was a flight technical officer, not a manager or even assistant manager. Its a nuts and bolts job for keen techies. No longer exist and if you had checked your facts you would have known that. Done about 16 years work for BALPA over the last 19. BA then actually encouraged BALPA techies activity and it got BALPA techies to places that they would otherwise not have got to. Ask yourself much have you actually done for your fellow aviators and for how long?
I came on to this site because I was made aware of a personal attack on me by persons whose identities seem familiar , as much of the phraseology is fairly familiar. I did not come on here to primarily advertise for BALPA. Thus the views are mine and if you want an official view , go to the BALPA site.
If you wish to continue further, happy to take private messages to avoid boing the hell out of everyone! This will be the last one for sure!
No one talked about the touchy feely stuff. It was not a debate on whether anyone here actually had any sympathy for or, with somone who is ill from whatever effects. Of course everyone is, but it does not change why they are ill.
The views were mine, if you want a BALPA view join up and go to the BALPA site. If you want to recruit for another association, that is your privilege, but wild accusations about BALPA are unreasonable.
Just the same about my past, I was a flight technical officer, not a manager or even assistant manager. Its a nuts and bolts job for keen techies. No longer exist and if you had checked your facts you would have known that. Done about 16 years work for BALPA over the last 19. BA then actually encouraged BALPA techies activity and it got BALPA techies to places that they would otherwise not have got to. Ask yourself much have you actually done for your fellow aviators and for how long?
I came on to this site because I was made aware of a personal attack on me by persons whose identities seem familiar , as much of the phraseology is fairly familiar. I did not come on here to primarily advertise for BALPA. Thus the views are mine and if you want an official view , go to the BALPA site.
If you wish to continue further, happy to take private messages to avoid boing the hell out of everyone! This will be the last one for sure!
Last edited by Martin Alder; 12th May 2005 at 23:24.
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Having just got back from a 3 day trip, some on the 757 and some on the 320, I fail to see why BALPA do nothing on air quality matters. We as cabin crew can't write up fumes we need you people to do it. I approached the F/O and told him the plane (A 757) stank of dirty socks and he simply said 'I know' but then told me the Captain did not want to 'rock the boat'!
IS IT LEGAL FOR PILOTS TO IGNORE WHAT WE TELL THEM ?
I have reported him to the T&G who thankfully are on the case.
Having reread, the complete thread and the AOPIS website data I fail to see how a BALPA official such as Martin Alder can work for BALPA and make comments like:
Behaving in a confrontational manner akin the Animal Liberation Front or such , as seems to be the case with the rather personal slurs on me in this thread in relationship to AOPIS.
BALPA were happy I understand from my T&G official to take copies of the AOPIS DVD for all their members and their sponsorship money for BALPA's recent conference and now they or Martin Alder (as he appears to be the only voice of BALPA) attack them.
Amazing!
What is clear is that Mr Alder is a non believer, does not care, does not know the facts and seeks to do all possible to bury the truth AND he is head of their safety unit!!!! SCAREY STUFF
What is not clear is why he is the only BALPA voice on this thread. Can a BALPA representative please confirm if his comments are BALPA policy ?
At least we in the T&G have a clear position which is with the government!!
The Transport and General Workers Union, the UK’s leading trade union representing cabin crew on aircraft, today called on the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) to make it a mandatory requirement for airlines to advise passengers that they have been exposed to contaminated air rather than maintain the current silence. This demand followed the ‘Contaminated Air Protection Conference’ which was organised by the pilots’ union BALPA in London last week. That conference concluded that crews and passengers exposed to contaminated air are getting sick. This conclusion confirmed what the T&G has seen with its crews working in the confines of commercial jet aircraft.
“It’s not maybe our people are being sick or perhaps but they definitely are,” said Oliver Richardson, T&G regional industrial organiser who represents cabin crew members. “How many passengers are also suffering? Who knows? Airlines do not tell passengers when they are exposed to contaminated air.”
Mr. Richardson said the T&G is now calling on the HSE to require that all British registered aircraft have bleed air filtration systems (cabin air supply) fitted on all aircraft used for passenger transportation above a maximum take off weight of 5700kgs so that crews and passengers can be protected from contaminated air as a matter of urgency. He added that the largest inquiry prior to the ‘Contaminated Air Protection Conference’, the 2000 Australian Senate Inquiry, had also called for air supply filtration systems to be mandatory. These systems are estimated to cost less than £15,000 for a typical holiday jet aircraft which costs millions of pounds to manufacture.
“The cost to put these filters on aircraft is a small price to pay to protect the travelling public,” added Mr. Richardson. “That’s why the T&G is now calling on the aviation industry to make the fittings of contaminated air sensors on all aircraft above a maximum take off weight of 5700kgs used for passenger transportation compulsory.”
ENDS
For further information please call Oliver Richardson on 020 8573 9494 or the T&G Press Office on 020 7611 2550/49
http://www.tgwu.org.uk/Templates/Int...p?NodeID=89253
IS IT LEGAL FOR PILOTS TO IGNORE WHAT WE TELL THEM ?
I have reported him to the T&G who thankfully are on the case.
Having reread, the complete thread and the AOPIS website data I fail to see how a BALPA official such as Martin Alder can work for BALPA and make comments like:
Behaving in a confrontational manner akin the Animal Liberation Front or such , as seems to be the case with the rather personal slurs on me in this thread in relationship to AOPIS.
BALPA were happy I understand from my T&G official to take copies of the AOPIS DVD for all their members and their sponsorship money for BALPA's recent conference and now they or Martin Alder (as he appears to be the only voice of BALPA) attack them.
Amazing!
What is clear is that Mr Alder is a non believer, does not care, does not know the facts and seeks to do all possible to bury the truth AND he is head of their safety unit!!!! SCAREY STUFF
What is not clear is why he is the only BALPA voice on this thread. Can a BALPA representative please confirm if his comments are BALPA policy ?
At least we in the T&G have a clear position which is with the government!!
The Transport and General Workers Union, the UK’s leading trade union representing cabin crew on aircraft, today called on the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) to make it a mandatory requirement for airlines to advise passengers that they have been exposed to contaminated air rather than maintain the current silence. This demand followed the ‘Contaminated Air Protection Conference’ which was organised by the pilots’ union BALPA in London last week. That conference concluded that crews and passengers exposed to contaminated air are getting sick. This conclusion confirmed what the T&G has seen with its crews working in the confines of commercial jet aircraft.
“It’s not maybe our people are being sick or perhaps but they definitely are,” said Oliver Richardson, T&G regional industrial organiser who represents cabin crew members. “How many passengers are also suffering? Who knows? Airlines do not tell passengers when they are exposed to contaminated air.”
Mr. Richardson said the T&G is now calling on the HSE to require that all British registered aircraft have bleed air filtration systems (cabin air supply) fitted on all aircraft used for passenger transportation above a maximum take off weight of 5700kgs so that crews and passengers can be protected from contaminated air as a matter of urgency. He added that the largest inquiry prior to the ‘Contaminated Air Protection Conference’, the 2000 Australian Senate Inquiry, had also called for air supply filtration systems to be mandatory. These systems are estimated to cost less than £15,000 for a typical holiday jet aircraft which costs millions of pounds to manufacture.
“The cost to put these filters on aircraft is a small price to pay to protect the travelling public,” added Mr. Richardson. “That’s why the T&G is now calling on the aviation industry to make the fittings of contaminated air sensors on all aircraft above a maximum take off weight of 5700kgs used for passenger transportation compulsory.”
ENDS
For further information please call Oliver Richardson on 020 8573 9494 or the T&G Press Office on 020 7611 2550/49
http://www.tgwu.org.uk/Templates/Int...p?NodeID=89253
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BRITISH AIRWAYS B757
THIS IS A GREAT THREAD BUT ITS CLEAR MANY ARE TRYING TO DENY THE TRUTH LIKE WITH TOBACCO, ASPESTOS, ETC...
FARGOO
YOU MUST BE A BRITISH AIRWAYS LAWYER FOR SAYING THE DIRTY SOCKS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH OIL!!
EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IS PART OF THE ENGINE OIL MOBIL JET OIL II SMELL
WE ALL KNOW THAT MANY PILOTS AT BRITISH AIRWAYS SUFFER NEUROLOGICAL LONG TERM PROBLEMS FROM EXPOSURE TO CONTAMINATED AIR AND ALSO ITS KNOWN EVEN HERE IN WASHINGTON THAT 4 BRITISH AIRWAYS CABIN STAFF ARE SUING BRITISH AIRWAYS FOR THEIR CURRENT CONDITION DUE TO CONTAMINATED AIR (I.E EXPOSURE TO MOBIL JET OIL II). THE FIRST OF MANY NO DOUBT.
HOW MANY PASSENGERS ARE SICK DUE TO AIR QUALITY ON COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT BUT DO NOT KNOW AS AIRLINES DO NOT TELL THEM ?
WE DEMAND TO BE TOLD WHEN WE ARE EXPOSED.
PASSENGER RIGHTS GROUP MEMBER
FARGOO
YOU MUST BE A BRITISH AIRWAYS LAWYER FOR SAYING THE DIRTY SOCKS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH OIL!!
EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IS PART OF THE ENGINE OIL MOBIL JET OIL II SMELL
WE ALL KNOW THAT MANY PILOTS AT BRITISH AIRWAYS SUFFER NEUROLOGICAL LONG TERM PROBLEMS FROM EXPOSURE TO CONTAMINATED AIR AND ALSO ITS KNOWN EVEN HERE IN WASHINGTON THAT 4 BRITISH AIRWAYS CABIN STAFF ARE SUING BRITISH AIRWAYS FOR THEIR CURRENT CONDITION DUE TO CONTAMINATED AIR (I.E EXPOSURE TO MOBIL JET OIL II). THE FIRST OF MANY NO DOUBT.
HOW MANY PASSENGERS ARE SICK DUE TO AIR QUALITY ON COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT BUT DO NOT KNOW AS AIRLINES DO NOT TELL THEM ?
WE DEMAND TO BE TOLD WHEN WE ARE EXPOSED.
PASSENGER RIGHTS GROUP MEMBER
Last edited by uncle sam flies; 14th May 2005 at 14:00.
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DIRTY SOCKS
Its not only British Airways that owns the dirty socks smell. I fly for Flybe & I get that sock smell most times I go to work on the 146. It\'s just more normal than not.
The industry cover up has gone on long enough & it has to stop NOW. Crews and passengers demand it.
I have obtained a copy of much of the information that was presented at the recent BALPA conference and for those who still want to ignore and say that \'the information is at best patchy\' -your time\'s up!!
The conference I was told presented strong conclusions linking crew short & long-term illness with the contaminated air and raised that the same could be happening to passengers.
Times up for those who dont want or perhaps can\'t read the data available and surely time has got to be up for the jokers in BALPA such as Martin Alder who has posted on this thread.
Come fly with me if you want to be gassed!
The industry cover up has gone on long enough & it has to stop NOW. Crews and passengers demand it.
I have obtained a copy of much of the information that was presented at the recent BALPA conference and for those who still want to ignore and say that \'the information is at best patchy\' -your time\'s up!!
The conference I was told presented strong conclusions linking crew short & long-term illness with the contaminated air and raised that the same could be happening to passengers.
Times up for those who dont want or perhaps can\'t read the data available and surely time has got to be up for the jokers in BALPA such as Martin Alder who has posted on this thread.
Come fly with me if you want to be gassed!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: England
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YOU MUST BE A BRITISH AIRWAYS LAWYER FOR SAYING THE DIRTY SOCKS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH OIL!!
Seems every time someone on here says something that's not liked they get accused of being a lawyer or a reporter. I'm neither.
I hope the industry gets to the bottom of this as i am one of the unfortunates who has to spend long periods in the f/d looking for the source of these smells. Invariably they (on the 757) don't re-occur on ground runs but we have in the past replaced engines and APU's. Don't know if the cabin being pressurised has any bearing on how concentrated the smells become.
***Uncle Sam Flies - Step on virtually any BA 757 with just ground power on and you'll get where I was coming from in my last post - they're not exactly a bed of roses!!***
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Penzance, Penzance.
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UTP. Word on the apron is that SOU is the in place for a roller coaster of sensual experiences waiting for the unwary punter.
Tense, nervous, headache? Dizzyness? Burning eyes, nose and throat? Think you suddenly caught a cold?
Does that Hostie really smell like that or is the Captain still wearing yesterdays socks?
Why am I feeling so tired?
Can't think straight? Problems doing basic arithmetic at the end of your shift? Can't fill in the techlog properly? Keep getting letters from the Boss complaining about your house keeping/ tech Log ?
Why can everyone else smell it but not me?
Why can I smell it but nobdy else can?
Why does my mouth taste like an Oil Can?
Why is my skin Oily?
Why have I got more Spots and Rashes than normal?
WHY is it still allowed to continue? WHY?
WELCOME TO MY WORLD
MY FINGER, IS ON THE BUTTON......WORLD!
Tense, nervous, headache? Dizzyness? Burning eyes, nose and throat? Think you suddenly caught a cold?
Does that Hostie really smell like that or is the Captain still wearing yesterdays socks?
Why am I feeling so tired?
Can't think straight? Problems doing basic arithmetic at the end of your shift? Can't fill in the techlog properly? Keep getting letters from the Boss complaining about your house keeping/ tech Log ?
Why can everyone else smell it but not me?
Why can I smell it but nobdy else can?
Why does my mouth taste like an Oil Can?
Why is my skin Oily?
Why have I got more Spots and Rashes than normal?
WHY is it still allowed to continue? WHY?
WELCOME TO MY WORLD
MY FINGER, IS ON THE BUTTON......WORLD!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxfordshire
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Martin Alder and BALPA post re AOPIS
Having been in this industry since the 70s, I have to comment on Mr Alders and BALPA attack on AOPIS of 10th May 2005 10:45. This behaviour would never have been allowed by previous NECs, so why now ?
For an association like BALPA to liken a crew group of sick crews to the Animal Liberation Front is a disgrace.
Having watched their DVD which BALPA (and the IPA) sent me I was grateful that my health is being looked after when BALPA do nothing it appears.
I am sure I am not the only BALPA member who does not support the comments made by Mr Alder.
I agree with 'Dolly with Brains' why is there no BALPA official comment ?
As far as fume occurences go, we used to smoke on the Trident so don't recall from those days, but the 757 frequently stank of oil on my short spell I had on that.
For an association like BALPA to liken a crew group of sick crews to the Animal Liberation Front is a disgrace.
Having watched their DVD which BALPA (and the IPA) sent me I was grateful that my health is being looked after when BALPA do nothing it appears.
I am sure I am not the only BALPA member who does not support the comments made by Mr Alder.
I agree with 'Dolly with Brains' why is there no BALPA official comment ?
As far as fume occurences go, we used to smoke on the Trident so don't recall from those days, but the 757 frequently stank of oil on my short spell I had on that.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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The other consideration here is value for money?
T&G at £2.15/week and lots of action on these issues.
BALPA 1% for denial of the problem and no action!
If I was a 'Nigel' I know where my money would go T&G.
T&G at £2.15/week and lots of action on these issues.
BALPA 1% for denial of the problem and no action!
If I was a 'Nigel' I know where my money would go T&G.
Now here is another possible view of this problem:
I was born in 1941 and went solo in 1957 and have been flying ever since. I have never had a problem with "fumes" or any other associated problems.
I have however met some young pilots who have, in my opinion, become quite seriously ill in the short term with this problem.
I have been told by a good friend in the medical profession that this is a function of age. You youngsters have very little in the way of an immune system. You have been immunised against every bloody disease known to man and have been shielded from every possible bug and infection that your parents could possibly manage.
I can remember having as a child; mumps, measles, German measles, chicken pox and every other known common disease. In fact, we used to be sent by our parents to play with sufferers of the latest disease so that we could all get it out of the way.
When I joined the Air Force we used to clean the exhaust stains off of cowlings with Toluene (which I am now told is lethal) and every morning, the Ops Board was cleaned with gallons of CTC (Carbon Tetracloride).
CTC was banned years ago.
What is my point? Simply put, I have a rattling good immune system and have not taken a single day off work for 18 years now.
If you are a vulnerable youngster then remember my advice:
Start the packs in full manual cold and run them in this way for a good 2 minutes before going to auto.
For those of you out there who do not think this is a problem, then you are probably an old fart like me but your kids are vulnerable because they have so far been protected from everything known to man and you probably did it!
I was born in 1941 and went solo in 1957 and have been flying ever since. I have never had a problem with "fumes" or any other associated problems.
I have however met some young pilots who have, in my opinion, become quite seriously ill in the short term with this problem.
I have been told by a good friend in the medical profession that this is a function of age. You youngsters have very little in the way of an immune system. You have been immunised against every bloody disease known to man and have been shielded from every possible bug and infection that your parents could possibly manage.
I can remember having as a child; mumps, measles, German measles, chicken pox and every other known common disease. In fact, we used to be sent by our parents to play with sufferers of the latest disease so that we could all get it out of the way.
When I joined the Air Force we used to clean the exhaust stains off of cowlings with Toluene (which I am now told is lethal) and every morning, the Ops Board was cleaned with gallons of CTC (Carbon Tetracloride).
CTC was banned years ago.
What is my point? Simply put, I have a rattling good immune system and have not taken a single day off work for 18 years now.
If you are a vulnerable youngster then remember my advice:
Start the packs in full manual cold and run them in this way for a good 2 minutes before going to auto.
For those of you out there who do not think this is a problem, then you are probably an old fart like me but your kids are vulnerable because they have so far been protected from everything known to man and you probably did it!
