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Landing a MD-11 (the hard way is not funny...)

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Landing a MD-11 (the hard way is not funny...)

Old 11th Mar 2002, 01:25
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Thank you Mainfrog and Gopher! It was 3+MB and took 7mins 30 secs to download on a common or garden variety telephone line. The predicted time was roughly the same as last nights but much faster in practice - as it can be from time to time hence some of my frustration. I'm off to try it out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 05:20
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On the 747 @ Perth, sounds like a big 250+ tonne side-slip ? Is that structurally possible in a 747 (given the max landing, fuel etc etc are within limits)?. .. .wondering ?. .. .F4
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 16:12
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The MD11 has got a reputation as one of the biggest handfuls to fly, and it isn't totally undeserved. I've been Sim and Line instructing on it for the last few years, and I've witnessed some pretty hairy stuff, including some where I've been "handling" (?) it!. .. .I haven't managed to see the video of the Alitalia faux pas, but the guy who taught me to fly the MD11 was Alitalia's ex-chief pilot of the MD11 fleet, and he drummed in the necessity of setting up a crosswind landing well before touchdown, with the crab taken out (so the fuselage is aligned with the runway heading) and a wing down to counter the drift. The explanation was that a last minute de-crab will increase drag as the big rudder is deflected; the rudder, being so high, has a roll moment; and if the de-crab is done early enough the Autothrottle has time to add power and compensate for the rudder induced drag.. .. .Another MD11 expert that I spoke to advised using Flap 50 instead of 35 in a strong crosswind, because the roll freedom (due to the lower deck angle) was better, and wing-tip strikes less likely.. .. .I enjoy the MD11 because it is a constant challenge, but I really think that if an Airbus had as many nasty habits, then our US friends would be full of criticism!
 
Old 13th Mar 2002, 00:55
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thanks TAT Probe!:. .. .- Finally I understand the reasoning behind the x-wind technique on the MD11! (is that written anyhwere?) So far I have just been told: That is what MD teaches.... .. .- Do you happen to know the increased clearance due to F50 instead of F35 on the wingtips?. .What about the increased tendency to "float" (just my in-experience maybe?) in that configuration?. .. .Never thought the "stories" were true, but it really is not "easy" to fly.
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Old 13th Mar 2002, 02:35
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Hi Wonderbusdriver.. .. .The techniques that I outlined in my post were ones that I was given during my training on type, and I don't know if they are written anywhere. The were passed on to me through the filter of Line trainers, and I have found them to work, so have passed them on in turn. . .. .MD (Boeing) are somewhat coy about the vices of the MD11, but it is certainly an easy airplane to get a tailstrike on, and this is, I think, the reason behind the MD11 Alitalia video clip at HKG. . .. .Having now seen the clip, it seems to me that the airplane was not in a stabilised approach, but still hunting for the centreline. The crosswind, judging from the windsock, does not seem to be a factor. The sink rate seems high, but the problem with the MD11 is that, if you try to correct a sink rate with "UP" elevator, then at the very time the aircraft contacts the ground, the tail is going down, and the inertia keeps it going down until the tail hits. The high approach speed (almost 170 kts at MLW) also doesn't help.. .. .I always teach that, unless the sink rate is obviously too much for safety (warranting a go-around), the attitude should not be increased in an effort to avoid hitting the ground, rather let the aircraft land without an increasing pitch attitude. This will avoid the likelihood of a tail strike. They tell me that a tail strike costs a minimum of $14 million to put right! It is a strong airplane, (as Alitalia demonstrated), so it can land "positively".. .. .In fairness to Alitalia, I have seen a few landings like that, both from inside and outside the cockpit! A Canarsie approach at JFK has also got all the ingredients of an unstable approach if one is not careful.. .. .As the accident report into the FedEx MD11 at Newark says, an unstable flare in this airplane is trouble, so if in doubt, go around and try again!. .. .All these opinions are my own, so please follow your own company procedures.
 
Old 15th Mar 2002, 07:54
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To palgia. .I personally did not save the original but for those of you who haven't got a chance to see the clip try this link:. . web page . .It doesn't have the same quality as the original one (this is a Real Player file vs Windows Media-original). .. .For all the MD drivers who expressed an opinion here thank you! Hopefully by bringing more often this kind of clips on the forums we can share some experiences and who knows…maybe save some lives too.. .. .Fly high and keep you feet dry
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Old 16th Mar 2002, 10:06
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Trying to see the pictures on that website, I only received some weird computer (DOS?) script, which combines medieval Russian (Greek), WW2 Enigma code and some Vietnamese dialect.. .. .By the way, a heavy DC-9 (50) always needs a few more knots than the book dictates (i.e. Vref+5) when 'attempting to land', but when very light (ferry flight) with an increasing headwind over a river bank, they don't want to sink below 20 feet! You must NOW smoothly push forward like in a 2-engine turboprop! Strange.. .. ."Steam-gauge" by choice, and not ashamed.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 06:08: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</small>
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Old 16th Mar 2002, 12:29
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Forget:. .. .a possible non avionics-related problem could be a horizontal stabilizer jammed in full nose-down position. That's the first thing that comes to my mind, at least. . .I can imagine that it was a very memorable landing indeed!. .. .Cheers
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Old 16th Mar 2002, 13:55
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744PNF, Thanks for the suggestion - but I would have thought that a jammed stab was an emergency situation such that passengers would have been told something. And the emergency services at Perth would have been in evidence. No, I'm sure this was a perfectly serviceable aircraft. So far as I'm concerned it was an unrecorded CFIT. Just so happens that the Terrain in question was a strip of concrete known as Perth Airport. Lucky eh!
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Old 21st Mar 2002, 23:04
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Talking about stabilized approaches, check out this videoclip, from last year's Le Bourget air show. It's one of the A-340-600's demo flights (16-june-2001). Of course, being a demo flight, test pilots and all, "normal" rules don't apply. Spectacular flying and approach/landing nonetheless.

Here it is, in two sizes
1) 9.6 Mb:
http://www.airbus-lebourget.com/vide...00demovolf.mov
2) 36.1 Mb (for those with really fast connections...):
http://www.airbus-lebourget.com/vide...demovolf01.mov

Another interesting video clip shows another demo flight, from the same show (19-june-2001), with cockpit footage and dialogues:
1) 7.4 Mb:
http://www.airbus-lebourget.com/vide...moflight2f.mov
2) 38.3 Mb:
http://www.airbus-lebourget.com/vide...flight2f01.mov

Last edited by SK; 1st Apr 2002 at 11:46.
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Old 22nd Mar 2002, 13:23
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I'll admit I'm a Boeing fan - but....WOWEE- KAZOWEE! That's some flying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Old 23rd Mar 2002, 21:32
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Couldn't open the clips with windows mediaplayer or realplayer. What program are you using to view the file?. .. .Cosmo
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Old 23rd Mar 2002, 21:56
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The default player for the .mov format is the QuickTime Player - free download at http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

Last edited by SK; 1st Apr 2002 at 11:43.
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Old 23rd Mar 2002, 22:53
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Thanks SK!. .. .Impressive footage, especially the clip including the flight-deck scenes. Worth the download.. .. .Regards,. .Cosmo
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Old 24th Mar 2002, 08:39
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Same airport, night time, different plane & crew, professional landing, great clip.. .. . Warning playing this file might take you awhile if you are still using the old 56k or less modem! ! ! ! . .Have a look and enjoy...by clicking underneath. .<a href="http://www.bird.ch/nilsalegren/a340/Multimedia/videos/other/hr744hkapp25.mpg" target="_blank">web page</a>
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Old 25th Mar 2002, 20:42
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WOW. The second link in SK's post, the A340-600 with cockpit view I noticed an interesting thing. . .. .During the low speed flyby the F/O starts a countdown from 10 on which to recover with full power. Upon the "NOW" call, the Captain says "I will just wait a few more seconds" to recover, at which point the F/O reaches over and rams the power to the stops.. .. .Great little bit of CRM to discuss!
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Old 26th Mar 2002, 22:04
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Maybe the FO in question, had previous to this flight seen the quite known A320 "eat some tree" video.. .. .seupp
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Old 26th Mar 2002, 22:26
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Actully, it looks like the F/O waits for the call full power and merely follows through to assures max PLA.
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Old 28th Mar 2002, 00:24
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I thought the best bit was when they're coming in to land and the skipper querries "where's the field, merde!". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> made me laugh..... .. .Cosmo
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