Rostering - is it a joke?
 

If it is a joke, I don't find it funny.
Next week I have my route check. I'm going to an airport I've never been to, which is a visual approach, at night. These things don't worry me cause I can prepare for them. What is really P ing me off is that I have not flown in 16 days, and after my rout check will not fly again for another 20 days when I will be expected to fly 14 sectors in 4 days. After wearing holes in the knees of my trousers today by begging for just one flight to keep me from rusting up completely I was informed that one of my 5 days of work this month had been subbed to a different fleet in the company. The woman on the end of the phone thought I should be overjoyed to have so much time off, but can't she see that I need to go to work to eat the crew meals, cause I can't afford to eat at home with the money I still owe for my training.
So all you people who been there, done that, please tell me; are rostering people really evil, or just ignorant?
Any rostering people reading this, if you have a good reason for reducing me to tears each month please tell me.

Rant over now.
Just had to get it off my chest.

So all you people who been there, done that, please tell me; are rostering people really evil, or just ignorant?

No, they aren't evil but they do have little, if any, knowledge of the applicable legislation. In addition, if you look at the job descriptions they have you will find that they are charged with ensuring that the company's flights are fully crewed. note that no mention is made of safely, or legally crewed or indeed the application of common sense.

Don't be disheartened; if it ain't legal don't do it, but if it is give it your best shot. You can't do more than that.

Pandora,

We are neither arrogant or evil. If we were you would soon know about it. But then again thats not to say that there are individuals out there who are.

Put it this way, how would you cope having to sort out the lives of several hundred people? Be aware of each crew members personal circumstances and trying to accomdate each and everyone one of you. You can't so you try and maintain a balance.

As for you roster, perfectly legal. Wether or not its ideal is only a question your training/fleet manager can answer.

As for lack of knowledge of legislation, that may be the case for some individuals, but, PaulDeGearup, its not on to tar all us rostering bods with the same brush! To be frank, the reverse is often true when crews are refered to the Company FTL scheme, the blank expression or silence on the phone, speaks volumes.

The big problem in this industry is the ignorance of both crews and ground staff, neither really knowing what the other does.

Pandora, you really have not got much of a clue, or respect for your fellow employee. Direct your aggression elsewhere or you may find that the next time YOU really need a favour then you may as well forget it. Of course Ops/Crewing staff are certainly not perfect, but neither are they ignorant, and are acutely aware in most instances of just exactly what the implications of training/recurrency are. I am sick of hearing crew moaning because they are not getting enough flying, oh and just remember you are probably getting paid a damn site more than the poor girl you have most probably bored to tears this afternoon - and I bet she paid for her lunch.
You are paid to be a professional man, start acting like one and you may then arrive in the real world

G R O'OVER

Hey Darren - "How you doin'"?

Sorry if this is a 'BMC' debate (I might have guessed) then its a swift departure for me !


G R OOVER

Groover,

This ain't a BMC thread, last time I checked we weren't flying Boeings.

BMC Inciter,

Doing just fine, how about you?

To the rostering people who are considerate and skillful in the organization of hundreds of peoples rosters, this rant was not aimed at you. I know that you are out there, but sadly for me not in my neck of the woods, and I apologize.
However the rostering department I do have to deal with doesn't even look after dozens of crew, let alone hundreds. My face aches from smiling so politely at them only to be met with a frosty stare and total lack of help or sympathy in return.
So now, rather than go and have a big shouty match with them I have taken a deep breath, made myself a cup of tea and spent 2 minutes throwing my toys out of my pram here on pprune in a slightly safer environment than the middle of the fleet office.
Btw groover - taking a pride in the standard and safety of my flying is professional; telling crew that they can't be bothered with their rosters (yes that's what she said) is not.

Pandora,

You know that crewing is no joke - it messes up peoples' lives daily - BUT don't shoot the messenger. The crewing dept gets a list of flights to crew and a list of pilots available (or contactable) and their job is to crew the a/c. They have all sorts of managers on their collective case. In many companies it's a wonder that they do the job so well, given the pittance most are paid.

Never forget, when you have the choice between conspiracy and cockup, always go for cockup - the odds are infinitely better!! :)

"Are rostering people really evil?"

Well, we got rid of them and now our schedules (rosters) are calculated by a computer with a bidding system. So far it worked out quite well, but there might be assignments like this :

27.Dec00 : ZRH-OSL-ZRH,ZRH-MAD-ZRH 12:00 Duty with A320
28.Dec00 : Sim Check/Refresher
29.Dec00 : ZRH-LHR-ZRH,ZRH-GVA with A330
30.Dec00 : GVA-JFK with A330
31.Dec00 : JFK-
01.Jan01 : GVA,GVA-ZRH

I never saw any roster like this planned "manually".

Pandora,

You confirm my every suspicion.

Pilots without jobs say they will do anything to get a job. Once they have a job they then forget how much they wanted the job and start to moan about rosters, crew food and pay.

You knew the deal before you started.

(By the way if you want to swap your Boeing 'office' for my 9-5 job in IT you have a deal)

Pandora - you have all my sympathies - I have been where you are myself and know exactly how you feel.
As has been said before the people who are tasked with crewing/rostering have a specific task to do but it is also a job which can require tactful handling. Your comments point to a lack of training and selection with respect to ground staff. It is not their fault but that of the company management that they have not had "people" training.
My advice is go and talk to your fleet manager and tell him how you feel - he/she may not be able to change much but at least you have communicated your feelings. As has been said before do not "shoot the messenger" because they are only doing their best.
With one company I worked for, which shall remain nameless, I told the Chief Pilot that I no longer felt like a "Captain" anymore because of the appalling lack of people management in the company. Unless you communicate your views nobody gets to know and, yes, one person can make a difference.
My final advice is to consider going on an assertive training course. I did and it gave me a lot of useful ways of handling these sorts of challenges! Well worth the money!

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This is an argument that cannot be won.
Whether it is done poorly by hand or too efficiently by machine; simply because so many people seem to think the whole of the airline world revolves around them!

(Let's see how long it is before one comes back and says - 'without us who would fly the plane!') The arguments to that would fill a thread to a thousand pages.

Just think about the millions in the world that work 10/12/16/18 hours a day just to feed their family! You guys are lucky, very very lucky. Let's have less of the "I want" and more of the "What can I do for you..".

Crewing might not get it right all the time but then again who is perfect.

I firmly believe that they dont sit around thinking who's life can they ruin next. People that think that are slightly arrogant in thinking they are that important!

Crewing and Op's have constraints just like us.

Every time we have to make a descion with do that with the information available at the the time and act accordingly with the time constraints. Crewing and Op's are no different.

You make the decision that works at the time if there was a better solution...well...hindsight is a wonderful thing!!!

Sometimes I think as pilots the only thing we are qualified is at moaning, myself included!

Give crewing a break they do try their best and I certainly do envy their job I am much happier being on the recieving end doing my on little thing in my aircraft!!!

:) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :)

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That's right, I am dangerous!!!

Pandora you are so full of S**T,for a person of your apparent intelligence,how can you insult all us wannabes who are desperate to land that first job.
Yes we all have loans but the chance you have been given, 100's would take up in your place,maybe you should keep your feet on the ground,or is your next topic,duty pay,or that C**P hotel you have to stay in...???

--NOT NOW--

KATO,

Do you know me? I did't realise I was so obviously apparently intelligent. I'm usually very happy to tell people I'm as thick as two short planks. You on the other hand are obviously not intelligent otherwise you would have realised one of the things I have already moaned about IS lack of duty pay, cause you have to have duty to get duty pay. However if you did know me you'd know that there is not much I find more exciting than a night down route in a really nice hotel. But that's another story.

As for me insulting wannabes, I find that amusing. To get from being a wannabe to being where it's at is a long hard slog. Even if you do it in record quick time you're still talking years of hard work and hardship. When you get to the end, you sort of hope for an improvement. Which is where you are probably at now - waiting for improvement in your current situation. If you read posts in many of the forums on pprune you will find that many pilots, cabin crew, atcos and more are all looking for improvement. That is why there is talk of strikes by all of the above groups on various threads at this very moment. So why is it so bad that I want my own very little bit of improvement? And when you finally get there I hope it is the bed of roses you are looking for. If it is, it's probably because someone ahead of you smoothed the way.

I think that the situation here is one of expectations versus reality.
We have to face the fact, guys and gals, that, with some remarkable exceptions, jobs in aviation are not all that they appear to be any more.
The reality is that with a lot of companies the "buggeration" factor is high, you will work long tedious hours and get very little thanks for what you do. The reality is also that once the wheels are off the ground it's a fantastic job - there are not many offices in the world that have the views which we get.
I honestly feel that the only people who understand pilots are pilots and that ground staff (for whom I have the utmost respect) will never understand why, from time to time, we appear not to be happy with our lot.
Simply put, the pilot's job is NOT what it used to be and in many cases the remuneration package does not make up for the crazy lifestyle. Having said that I believe that pilots should be paid well for their skill and expertise and not anti-social working hours, etc.

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AT LAST ...
A PROOF OF THE JET/PILOT DISSIMILARITY THEORUM - I KNEW I'D FIND IT SOME DAY

What's the difference between a jet engine
(turbofan) and an airline pilot?

The jet engine quits whining after parking
up on the stand.

To anyone who longs for a 'jet' job and swears that if they got one they would never complain about conditions - hell, they'd fly for food! -

BOLLARDS!

As my girlfriend says, Just you wait...

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

This is one finger of blame that everyone uses and everyone dodges. It doesn't matter how talented a rosterer you are, there will come a day when you will have to churn out something that does not fit the ideal. Fireflybob hit the nail on the head. Jobs in aviation are not all they used to be. The old days when flying was a gentleman's occupation that was done at gentlemanly hours of the day are long gone. More and more flying is taking place outside the traditional working hours of 9-5, Mon-Fri and that is a situation which is unlikely to change. Just look at how many flights are now planned to operate on Christmas Day. To add to the burden most airlines are now controlled by bean counters who work to numbers. As far as they are concerned if you can be on duty 55hours a week, 95hours a fortnight then you should be.
The modern airlines run by accountants came about because it was perceived that pilots in management didn't make for profitable companies. I personally would prefer a return to those days. At least then we may have people in charge who actually understand the impact of not having enough aircrew.