Well folks, in the absence of an answer to Lhr Dir's query, it looks like we can't logically take this one any further except to say that inefficient use of controlled airspace within Egtt is bad news for us all.
Cheers
mcdhu

So how do you actually become an air trafic controller?It has alays been my second choice after a pilot and it has always interested me. I know the training takes place at Bournemouth, but are there any specific qualifications/degrees needed and other skills??

Check out the ATC forum, lots of threads that may interest you there.

Gonzo.

Is it possible that the cabin was not yet secure? If the aircraft has made up time or the service has been delayed a wide body must take quite some time to get all packed away to land.

That this is a company-convenient procedure causing system constipation seems undeniable.
Such constipation usually can be accommodated, but, if used without discretion, (bad wx, etc) could result in pile-on constipation, and, possibly, disaster. It should be stopped. Get it down, NOW!
Sam

I don't believe it; it happened again! Picture the scene. Three of us, JMC, Expo and AMM rushing towards Mayfield at 0330Z on a Sunday morning and up pops this Big Airways Jumbo (Birdseed 20??) and actually says,'We're trying not to land before 0345.' So yes, you've guessed it, the 3 of us are then subjected to about 25 extra track miles while Birdseed's request is acceeded to. Talk about wasting time/fuel; they're experts at it.
Land and take the hit, Nigels, or manage your flights better; we're all trying to save the Company's money at the moment.
Cheers
mcdhu :eek:

Yeah, life's a bitch McDoo, just pick your teddy bear up, get back in your cot, and get on with the rest of your life. :rolleyes:

It happened again at OCK this morning - BA going round and round for no earthly reason at FL130 when he could have been on the ground. BA Ops said they knew of absolutely no reason why the crew had decided to hold. Bizarre, eh?

Director

I find it strange that those what lurk in the offices don't know the source of these events - 'cause they wrote it.....

It goes something like this and features in the briefing notes for London.

Schedule Mangement

Unless printed instructions from Ops control are provided to captain before departure every effort should be made not to land before the following times
Westerly RWs. Not before STA -30 min on stand between STA and STA - 15min.
Easterly RWs. Not before STA -20 min on stand between STA and STA - 15min.
If necessary reduce cruise speeds and delay departure from outstation.

The reason - so they can manage the arrivals using the minimum amount of staff.
I have crossed the atlantic at M.74 to achieve the said criteria, but entering the hold is, I feel, a bit drastic. But crews have been sent letters for arriving early, even only a few minutes outside the laid down figures.

Lunatics + Asylums :confused:

Very many thanks, Thunderbug. I'll pass this information to LATCC Management so that it can at last be stopped.

Thanks Thunderbug and a good call from LHR Dir; let's get this abuse of our airspace, and other peoples' fuel and time, stopped!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Cheers
mcdhu

They're still at it... heavy jet from North America mid-morning didn't want to land before a certain time. Seems an utterly bizarre procedure for an airline which is drastically in the red.

The strange thing is that it must surely cost more to hold a 747 for 15 minutes that pay 200 people for 1 hrs work. . .Possibly this is one area where an enterprising member of staff can use the staff suggestion scheme. Surely if you don't want to be on chocks ahead of time hold in the maintenance area for the 20 mins.

Heathrow Director. .If you want to stop it hold him west of Cardiff for 20 minutes then put him in the hold again to make him late on chocks. :)

Heathrow Director, Did you get anywhere with the idea of asking LATCC to contact BA about Thunderbug's post (see yr post of 01/11). Hope all's well down on the coast-it's fine from where I sit!. .Cheers. .mcdhu

E-mail me with the flight number HD and I'll find out the details and get back to you.

Airclues

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain Airclues ]</p>

Do the shareholders know that fuel and time is being wasted in this manner?

It makes ecological nonsense to waste fuel this way.

Who an earth thought of dreaming up such stupid rules?

Can I just add to the debate? Good luck in getting any BA manager to change their minds once a decision has been made. The problem we have is Flt Ops managers don't have the authority to overrule other stupid decisions. The main reason we have these silly restrictions is lack of terminal space and night restrictions at terminal four.{Roll on T5} Unfortunately, BA don't give the captains the authority to overrule these restrictions even when we know we wont have a problem on the day.....So the poor crew is left with the problem of HAVING to depart on time out of the United States {cos they are "time sensitive"} and knowing we are going to land 30 mins ahead of schedule and get a bollocking from our own management for landing early. Whats' a pilot to do?

Flying back from the States late last year, we were told by the Captain that we were not allowed to arrive early. We pushed back on time and sat on the ground for a while, then flew slowly home. Same story as Thunderbug. Ridiculous.

Might one ask what impact prolonging the sector would have on the allowances received by the flight crew?

The job of the airline captain is to operate his aircraft in a safe, efficient and punctual manner - . .safe because he wants to get home;. .efficient because he wants his passengers to be able to afford to fly next time;. .punctual because he wants his passengers to want to fly next time.

I can't see how such inefficient practices can benefit a company. I suspect personal agendas are more likely to be at stake - which is why the company couldn't come up with an answer.

OK on the last few replies but can anyone crew member explain why they don't hold on the ground? My colleagues in ATC at Heathrow have assured me that there would be no problem finding a place and I recall from my 23 years there that we'd often do this without any problems.