Mutt - I know that Freeboot (in his Who?) guise is indeed around, but I suspect that he's sticking to the main forums ... the 'search' function or whatever he uses to keep track of what I post has obviously malfunctioned! :D :D :D

We're not going to be using charter configured aircraft - instead, we'll be doing the opposite with the fleet (mainly) consisting of L1011-500s with J at 60 inch pitch and Y at 36 inches; and providing a very upmarket service.

As I said earlier on this thread, the upmarket, quality approach worked well for Lauda Air which also operates from a country with a very small domestic market. There's no reason for us not to suppose that we can also attract pax (fed in by FR) from locations other than PIK.

Well, that's the theory, anyway!! :D ;) :p

Well, theoretically you could, as the freighter variant runs with a max. payload of approx. 40t (at a 100 kgs per pax = 400 pax). but I doubt that they would find it comfortable being palletized!!! ;) .

Door limitation is 279, but then your Range goes down the drain. Also it is not very easy to find a 164-Version these days (referring to MTOW!!!) that wants to be sold.

Oh, and a slight correction: the A310 does only have 2-man cockpit. Some early versions of te A300s have 3 man required, but the A310 was built form scratch with 2 guys in the front office. Airbus later integrated the A310 cockpit into the A300-600.

Guv
I just hope you'll be able to make it work. As discussed before, I doubt that the TriStar will work, but we never want to forget that Air Atlantic (formerly Atlantique, much nicer name) operates a bunch of vey old aircraft wuite successfully.

My three-holer has no s-duct at the end!

Didn't Court Line operate the Tristar in 400 seat configuration?

Airclues

SunSeaSandfly

Must beg to differ there old boy. Y'see it all depends whether ye come from east or west of 40W. If you come from west of 40W you will spend the entire trip across the oggin soliciting or responding to solicitations for "ride reports"

No but seriously folks, an aircrafts reaction to light to moderate turbulence is a function (I think) of wing loading, and not date of manufacture.

In severe turbulence it's more whether you can read the instruments or maintain your assigned level within 500ft.
:eek:

Airclues - quite right: both Court Line and BA had double width aft doors which allwed them to carry approximately 50 pax more than the standard aircraft. Caledonian's aircraft - now sitting at GAMCO in AUH - are in a 393Y configuration.

Whilst discussion of the business plan is of course relevant as many people will no doubt echo the tendency in the industry particularly with regard to financing a start up tends to be the credibility and track record of the principal and or their associates and their acceptance within the banking industry as good risks...

Unfortunately the technical merits of the aircraft/business plan tends to be a secondary factor in my experience...

However good the business plan is if the individual has no, or worse still a poor track record then whether it is a Tristar or a Saturn rocket becomes very much academic...

The principal is the key...after all no one would want to work for or trust one who was a fraud, running from debt etc. etc or perhaps worse! :eek:

There is some good Tristar info on:

http://flytristar.tripod.com

and a "Court Line" summary on:

http://www.zoomoon.co.uk/courtline.html

:D :D

Guv

I was wondering were you recruiting for your airline yet cause I’d like to apply for a position in your newly formed airline as chief galley rat. That way I can be ideally positioned to take a bite, chew or nibble out of the first pilot I take me fancy to. :) I have a slight tremble in both hands & I tend to spill hot drinks over people but I’m sure that can remain a little secret between us & a slight little oversight that can be overlooked :D

While were at it I think I’ll caste Captain Airclues, my favourite captain xxx (or should I say Lord Airclues he seems to have gained a peerage in the meantime) as chief training pilot/pilot.

Airbourne can be your chief marketing manager & head of inflight entertainment (no headbanging music please) & Mutt your chief ground manager (sorry mate not letting you near the controls yet)

Boss Raptor can be your chief of operations and being the suspicious divil that he is the chief of the treasury ;)

Flap Sup your chief adoring & naïve secretary.

There now quite a motley crew at your service, I can send you my CV if you want :)

Tristars, aren’t they the aircraft that used to be leased by EI from Caledonian, great aircraft they are. Flew from Dub to Shannon in one once, nearly had to be revived by O2 when we landed, thank Jasus & me lucky stars I wasn’t flying over the pond in it :eek: . Wasn’t there a case where it landed in the UK on route to Dublin just after being leased & they couldn’t get airbourne again. As I said great aircraft they are :rolleyes:

Always at your service

Emerald

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]

Having just seen the Tristars in AUH I suggest that 'rotting' would be more apposite. Surely there can't be that much of a market from PIK anyway? (before you start on catchment areas guv, lets talk about the actual MARKET!) :D

Won'tthe old L1011 require major avionics upgrading to fly in European airspace within a couple of years (ie GPS). Notwithstanding company proving RVSM skin waviness etc. And as for kapton wiring problems in old tristars.....don'teven go there...please :eek:

Some TriStars are fitted with GPS units already, and the CADC and autoflight system requires no changes to comply with RVSM. Skin mapping is required of course, along with a pitot mast upgrade. Cost 'round about $40,000.

A flexible lease commensurate with financial performance, ie: Sustained loadfactor and sustained Scottish market share, of 2 new 767s would definitely be more dependable and viable than it would be to refurbish old TriStars.

The early generation RB 524s are maintenance intensive, especially sensitive to vibration. These 3 spool motors are not as dependable as the twin spool CF6s on the Diesel 10. I don't believe that those -524s can do more than 2000 hours on the wing.
But because these birds are so cheap to buy, it's possible to keep 2 spare ships in operational readiness at each side of the Atlantic.

Stop Start - I was at GAMCO a few weeks back and the Caledonian L1011s are fine - the Blue Scandinavian one has been earmarked as a counter-terrorism training ship; and the Air Lanka aircraft are in the process of being broken up, having been bought by Air Transat a year ago for spares.

Kapton is not a problem in the L1011s, according to the documentation I have and the discussions I had with LMSC 10 days ago.

RVSM, TCAS II, 8.33 MHz spacing, FM Immunity etc forecast at under US$100k per aircraft including installation.

Glueball - the aircraft we're looking at are powered by the latest version RB211-524B4Is, which have much improved fuel burn; little vibration due to new blade technology; long TBOs and cool hot sections.

Fuel burn advantage over the CF6-50C2 is, as I have stated, some 15 - 20%. Try up to 13,000 hours on wing (Delta's figures).

We could buy and refurb all of the Delta L1011s for the cost of a single new B767 - plus we don't have the ETOPS certification and maintenance problems (which was what caused Excel to lease in their ex BY 767s from Air Atlanta). Route structure we're looking at requires minimum of six and preferrably seven aircraft - again, we can do it viably with cheap lift and probably couldn't make it work with expensive aircraft.

Operating principle is simple - I can run lots of L10s at 150 - 200 hours per month average utilisation including their higher fuel burn for less than a similar level of utilisation with lower fuel burns with new aircraft (eg 767s). 767 owners are looking for 300 - 350 hours per month guaranteed utilisation per aircraft.

You're right about the back-up aircraft, though! :D :D :D

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

Even SV in the mid-eightys averaged 4800 hours on wing with the "old style" -524B02 in the sandy desert.

Now I know you've got an MBA guv...(Master Bull!!!! Artist)...anyone who isn't worried about arc tracking in kapton wiring in old aircraft, (and they are very old aircraft)..needs help or better technical advice. :rolleyes:

Stop Start - I suggest you do a search on Kapton - you'll find that I'm one of the most fervent advocates against the stuff! The reality of the matter is that there have been no instances of problems with it on the L1011. I've sat down with both LMSC and Delta and gone over this issue thoroughly - and I have to say I've been impressed by their prevention programme. (Unlike that on the DC10/MD11/747!!)

Now, this thread has been so far rather civilised ... do you mind terribly if we keep it that way, please? :D :eek: :rolleyes:

Hmm Marketing Manager of an imaginary airline? Sounds good! When do I start?

In reality, Guv has being talking about this for how long??? long before I join pprune anyway. Isint it about time that we all got sense and stopped using valuable thread space talking about this 'project' ive been there and it cant take that long! Mind you it sounds like a good 'story'

Airbourne - before you have a snicker at my expense, how many airlines have you started up, exactly? This will be my third. Or three and a half, if you really want to nit-pick!

I've been working on this for exactly 19 months now. Southwest Airlines, probably the most consistently successful airline around, took nearly three years to get up and running; and Laker's Skytrain took almost four years.

Even Virgin Atlantic - including its previous guise as British Atlantic - took over three years!

If I was you, I'd take a leaf out of the barrister's book: never ask a question that you don't know the answer to! :D :D :D

Guv,

Personally I dont know why im replying to your comment, (must be the alcohol)

For someone who spends so much time 'setting up an airline' you probably spend just as much time here copying and pasteing material you find in the newspapers. But hey, thats your life! In the 20 months that Ive been a member of this board I and many other members of pprune have yet to see anything except talk... excuse me bullcrap coming out of your mouth. Shall we bring up the newspapers stories again or the stories from Delta, or the fact that no-one in PIK knows what your up to!!.... And they never heard of you in SNN either!!

As regards to my experience or knowledge within the business, I havnt set up any airlines and frankly Im not getting into it with you! Those who know me, know what Im talking about and I dont need to offer information.

So if I go down to PIK next weekend are you gonna be the one sitting on top of his lada with a flask of tea, box of ham sandwiches, binoculars and scanner in hand ready to start tugging off to the sight of an old L1011 coming in!!?? Get a life mate, you can continue to spread your ideas here but Im sure the majority know what your all about!

There is loads more I'd love to question you about and your work ethics and I havnt got the patience to list them all out!

Airbourne - if you'd ever set up any sort of a business, you'd know that the majority of the time you're sitting around twidding your thumbs waiting for other people's input without which you can't move forward to the next stage.

As for the newspaper stories ... there was (unsought) coverage in seven papers - including a couple of Irish ones. Only one of them was in any way negative (Sunday Mail) and that was proven to have originated from our old friend Freeboot/Who?.

The majority of times I post are outside normal working hours - for example, it's now 0730. As for my work ethic, I'm rather stunned at that :eek: :rolleyes: ... I generally work at least a 12 hour - and often 18 hour day. How much do you put in? :D

As for no-one knowing what I'm up to at either PIK or SNN (which is no longer on the cards, btw - and hasn't been for a year now) then you're obviously talking to the cleaner's assistant's deputy. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.