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Liffy 1M 25th Jan 2022 19:59


Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack (Post 11173274)
Perhaps the aircraft has a special 'Holeski' where they put a camera in to record what's what and what's not ? Unlikely, but you never know.



Did that happen often ? If so, what were the consequences of descending to lower altitudes without ATC clearance ?

I remember back in the 70's/80's at Frankfurt, the occurrence of Soviet/Eastern European aircraft requesting landing clearance on the runway next to the USAF base was a weekly thing. Apparently these aircraft DID have cameras/sensors on-board to gather intelligence on the happenings at Rhein-Main AFB. Of particular interest were the matte black C-130's that flew COMINT missions along the Berlin Corridors.

I wonder if PanAm aircraft that flew to the then USSR?China etc had capabilities to gather intel other than the crew seeing things out of the windows ?

I would recommend this book to anyone seriously interested in the Berlin Corridor activities by the western powers during the Cold War.

Suzeman 1st Feb 2022 20:26


Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack (Post 11174552)
A slight thread drift, but why would Aeroflot or LOT etc need to fly to Manchester back then on a regular basis ? London had Government and the Embassies, perhaps tourists in smaller numbers, but I'm scratching my head about Manchester and environs.

Manchester's twin city was Leningrad, so every couple of years a TU104 would pitch up on an exchange visit.

Eventually Moscow / Leningrad became city break tourist destinations with regular summer charters on Aeroflot 154s on behalf of Thomson

There were regular LOT flights using IL-18 and TU-134 and sometimes IL-62 with a mix of tourists and visiting friends and relatives. Not to mention Tarom IL-18/TU154 and IL-62 and Balkan TU-134/154 on package holidays.

Gave the savvy people of the north an opportunity to fly direct without all the hassle of having to go over London

skam fly 1st Feb 2022 21:06


Originally Posted by Bames (Post 11173708)
This is the truth. I have connections in Air Bridge Cargo, and what happened was that the 747 bound to Leipzig went tech, so they put that cargo into the Cincinnati-bound aircraft, which had been refueled already. They had to make a detour to be within landing weight limits on arrival at Leipzig. Simple as that.

That 748F (VQ-BRH) arrived from HKG fully loaded before being dispatched to LEJ. There’s usually no load change involved in DME, so being a fuel stop only.
But how does this match to the „truth“ that VQ-BRH was bound for Cincinnati..?? Doesn’t make sense, right…
Was it possibly a simple mistake of the dispatchers/fuelers mixing up aircraft’s..??

SpringHeeledJack 2nd Feb 2022 10:07

A good account of Manchester's Soviet-Bloc air traffic.

My question was perhaps with the period between the 1950's and 1980's in mind, so to say before the Balkan Holidays et el commenced in the 80's. The twinning of Manchester and Leningrad was no doubt an irritation to the Mandarins of Whitehall, but great for spotters!

DaveReidUK 2nd Feb 2022 10:57

Happily, Manchester still appears to be an irritation to Whitehall. :O

ATNotts 2nd Feb 2022 13:44

I'm sure nothing sinister, but I have noticed that Air Bridge 747-8s almost always arrive in EMA from Krasnoyarsk crossing the Yorkshire coast then heading across Sheffield and then approaching EMA from the north. I assumed that this is just logical based on great circle routings. But then yesterday Volga Dnepr AN124 RA-82074 was inbound from Leipzig and took a similar routing, which for flights between LEJ and EMA did appear very odd, since the very regular DHL and Kallita flights on this route pretty well always approach from the southeast or east. I'd had thought that if there was some operational or economic reason to make landfall to the north of EMA then all the carriers would look to use that routing.

In these troubled times one does wonder, but equally one wonders what they'd expect to be looking for if there was anything untoward going on - and if the UK did have anything to hide why they'd allow such routing from (potentially) hostile nations commercial aircraft.

SpringHeeledJack 3rd Feb 2022 09:40

We'll never know and it could be as you say, something untoward. Either they are allowed, or guided to 'see' whatever as a ruse, or there's nothing to see in general terms. If the resolution of spy satellites are as good as is purported, then 'they' know everything already :-)

Bames 3rd Feb 2022 10:35


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11178815)
I'm sure nothing sinister, but I have noticed that Air Bridge 747-8s almost always arrive in EMA from Krasnoyarsk crossing the Yorkshire coast then heading across Sheffield and then approaching EMA from the north. I assumed that this is just logical based on great circle routings. But then yesterday Volga Dnepr AN124 RA-82074 was inbound from Leipzig and took a similar routing, which for flights between LEJ and EMA did appear very odd, since the very regular DHL and Kallita flights on this route pretty well always approach from the southeast or east. I'd had thought that if there was some operational or economic reason to make landfall to the north of EMA then all the carriers would look to use that routing.

In these troubled times one does wonder, but equally one wonders what they'd expect to be looking for if there was anything untoward going on - and if the UK did have anything to hide why they'd allow such routing from (potentially) hostile nations commercial aircraft.

If I wanted to do something sinister with a Russian airliner, I would not necessarily start with an airline that has a large number of foreign pilots, including British and U.S., and flies regularly to both these countries. ABC has hubs in Atlanta and Chicago.

ATNotts 3rd Feb 2022 10:49


Originally Posted by Bames (Post 11179199)
If I wanted to do something sinister with a Russian airliner, I would not necessarily start with an airline that has a large number of foreign pilots, including British and U.S., and flies regularly to both these countries. ABC has hubs in Atlanta and Chicago.

It was the Volga Dnepr that really spiked my interest rather than the Air Bridge because the direct routing from Leipzig is not normally the one they took. it occurred to me yesterday (after posting) that it is conceivable that the UK directed the Volga Dnepr northwards so it wasn't flying over East Anglia. Who knows? Some might say who cares!!

jensdad 4th Feb 2022 00:25


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11179209)
It was the Volga Dnepr that really spiked my interest rather than the Air Bridge because the direct routing from Leipzig is not normally the one they took. it occurred to me yesterday (after posting) that it is conceivable that the UK directed the Volga Dnepr northwards so it wasn't flying over East Anglia. Who knows? Some might say who cares!!

Good thinking. I've commented here previously about some of the very illogical routings of the various Antonovs that tramp around Europe (One routing something like East Mids to Gothenburg routed over Newcastle I seem to recall) but it never occurred to me that it might actually be UK ATC directing them away from things rather than the crew directing them towards things!

FUMR 4th Feb 2022 12:59

How naive to think that these transport aircraft would simply be allowed to route wherever they wanted to. I think some of you watch too many Hollywood movies ;)

PinOnTheRight 4th Feb 2022 13:00


Originally Posted by jensdad (Post 11179567)
Good thinking. I've commented here previously about some of the very illogical routings of the various Antonovs that tramp around Europe (One routing something like East Mids to Gothenburg routed over Newcastle I seem to recall) but it never occurred to me that it might actually be UK ATC directing them away from things rather than the crew directing them towards things!

If it was Mon-Friday, the D323 complex in the North Sea may have been active and as such, a direct route across towards Gothenburg wouldn't have been available. Options would be to route out over East Anglia and a sharp left turn up towards Copenhagen, or over Newcastle and then NE towards Gothenburg.

jensdad 4th Feb 2022 20:55


Originally Posted by PinOnTheRight (Post 11179755)
If it was Mon-Friday, the D323 complex in the North Sea may have been active and as such, a direct route across towards Gothenburg wouldn't have been available. Options would be to route out over East Anglia and a sharp left turn up towards Copenhagen, or over Newcastle and then NE towards Gothenburg.

Fair point. I can't remember the exact details but it did look a very strange routing, even taking into account D323. That was just one example though; there were some other strange bendy routes taken by other flights over continental Europe.


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