Why do Heathrow aircraft go over my house?
 

I live in Bromley SE London and I'm wondering, why do the heathrow-bound aircraft coming from the west, fly in a large U shape over my house?? I'm roughly 25 miles east of the airport itself, and it seems to me to be a bit of a large and slightly unnecessary detour for the aircraft to make?

If anyone could give me any info on this, it would be much appreciated

Thanks:)

Two reasons. They could have been given approach from the east and guidance to land from the east or they are doingna go around waiting for a landing slot.

You're pretty much south of London city right?

If so it could be the establishing turn that you see. In other words the turn onto the ILS (instrument landing system) to establish the approach for one of the westerly runways.

That would be my guess looking at Bromley on a map and trying to estimate where the Heathrow RMA is. I'm sure a more proficient answer will come with time though, but perhaps my guess is a start anyway :p

OK.. There are four holding areas for Heathrow, two to the north and two to the south. The standard procedure for a landing aircraft is to fly a "circuit", which consists of "downwind", where the aircraft flies away from the field, usually parallel to the landing runway, to lose height, next is the "base leg" when the aircraft turns so that it is flying at 90 degrees to the runway heading. Last of all is final approach, when the aircraft is flying straight towards the runway.

Light aircraft can accomplish all this in a mile or two, but larger aircraft have to be properly lined up on final approach from some distance out.

OK... next, consider that major airports are extremely busy so the "circuit" may extend for some miles as individual aircraft follow the one ahead. If it is quiet, the final approach may be only 8 miles long but if it's very busy it may extend to 15-20 miles out.

Major airfield have radar controllers directing the traffic a) to keep it safe and b) to ensure the maximum landing rate to avoid undue delays. The controllers direct the aircraft approximately to the "circuit" described above, although the shape of the circuit may vary somewhat from basics. The two holding areas to the south are Biggin and Ockham. When it is time to start their approach, aircraft are told to leave the holding areas on headings to take them into the circuit. To give controllers maximum flexibility, aircraft from Biggin are usually taken off on a westerly heading whilst those from Ockham leave on roughly an easterly heading. The Biggin aircraft are then turned on to the downwind heading to fit into traffic from Ockham, producing a stream on roughly an easterly heading over the towns of Sutton, Croydon and maybe Bromley before they turn north on the base leg. At the same time, traffic from the holding areas north of Heathrow is being directed similarly on the north side of the field. The two downwind streams are then knitted together as they are turned on to final approach.

There is very much more to it than that, but they are the basics. The radar controllers for Heathrow are located at Swanwick on the south coast and they have control over the whole of the approach sector so they can direct pilots onto various heading to provide separation from other aircraft whilst maintaining the steady landing stream.

And because there's a beacon at Biggin Hill :)

Phileas Fogg.. Once they are in the "circuit" the location of the beacons is irrelevant. He's jusr as likely seeing traffic from OCK.

Skipness.. I refer you to my earlier post.

Why aircraft sometimes fly over my house is what started my interest, there are some great websites out there, I use flightaware, if you look at:

FlightAware > Swiss (LX) #352 Flight Tracker

and hit the Google Earth button you can see a detailed map of the path a plane takes.

I guess the plane hits the ILS around Dulwich and lines up for the righthand runway around Battersea

The point at which it intercepts the ILS is immediately before it turns on to it. The turn at Dulwich was the "closing heading" given by the radar controller. Didn't see the Google option...?

On the right, on the status row at the end there is a button <Google Earth> this downloads a kml file, which the default format for google earth, it should open with Google Earth if it is installed

I must be crackers - no sign of Google on the page I see; anyone else found it? I have Google Earth installed and use it extensively.

Took me a while to spot it HD, about two thirds of the way down to the right of the map you should see "status" and there is a "google earth" button to the far right of that.

OK, I've got "Status" 2/3 of the way down the map. To the right is the word "Scheduled" and the line is then blank to the edge of the page!

Not to worry. I have SBS but I was just a little curious..

Hi HD

if you select a previous sector for the flight, i.e one that has already operated the google earth icon appears. following the link shows tomorrows flights at the top first.

In the house I have lived in for the past 19 years I rarely now hear aircraft that much (Sutton) the last one that always made its prescence felt was Concorde - in the house I previously lived in (1.5nm NNW from 'Croydon Airport') I always heard turbo props, noisy jets etc., Now the din is noisy helos - but not many. The airways are MUCH quieter these days.

However, in the summer, as I am on the SE corner of the Lon TMA, the occasional spitfire and others pass, transiting to air shows. Even SVFR's are few and far between :{

Does the 194 bus still run to 'Croydon Airport'?

Aaaah, childhood memories, cycling across Hayes Common to Biggin Hill, before that living in the Groundsman's bungalow (aged circa 3 till 7) on Bromley Cricket Club, Plaistow Lane .... before that standing on the centre court at Wimbledon ..... but that's going back to my grandfather, moreso than my father, days :)

Heathrow Director - do you know the rough total distribution of arrivals over the four beacons? Is it 25% each or are some more busy than others over the course of a day. I am obviously aware that at certain times some are busier than others e.g. Lambourne first thing in the morning.

Alas, the 194 now terminates at West Croydon Bus Station.

The 119 thunders mightily from Bromley through central Croydon to "Purley Way Colonnades" - apparently a youth-focused entertainment complex - where the Gipsy Moth pub can be found on the opposite side of Purley Way to the airport terminal. Such is progress...

Lucky to see the odd Spitfire over our little corner of the TMA Pop, I once saw the Lancaster paying a courtesy call to the Croydon Airport memorial, and an Avenger and Sea Fury formating their way to the west on another ocassion...

Quite a few light aircraft squeeze between the corner of the TMA and the gliding activity at Kenley, but I mostly see aircraft westbound off the hold at Biggin Hill and on the eastern leg towards Bromley as described by HD above. And the departures on a Dover 21 or 22 SID? Seem to recall that name from the far off days listening to an airband...

treadigraph,

When I were a lad the 194 ran from Croydon Airport to Forest Hill, the 194a (nearest to my house) ran from Thornton Heath to Beckenham Junction (sometimes terminating at Monks Orchard) and the 194b, I can't recall where that started off but it terminated on Shrublands Estate, in those days the 119 was Bromley South or North Station to West Croydon, there was a 119a (Sunday Service) also but my brain cells are deficient meanwhile there was a 194c sevice that only operated on Sundays.

Then the baskets changed to one man buses, the 166 from Beckenham Junction to Chipstead Valley however all adventure was lost ... one could no longer jump from an open rear plartorm as the bus would go around a corner :)

Doors,

Off the top of my head, LAM accounts for about 35% of inbounds, with the remaining holds in the low twenties.

Like Gonzo says, LAM is by far the busier of the 4 holds. Depending on the location of the North Atlantic tracks, BOV will usually have more traffic than OCK, but obviously that varies during the day too. BIG typically has the least amount of traffic of the four holds, although it too can get very busy at times, especially if traffic is stack-swapped from LAM or OCK to it.

BOV ? Have they moved BNN then ? :confused::}

No; he can't spell!

Yes, I meant BNN. I had intended to write Bovingdon out in full, but in my laziness abbreviated it erroneously.

However, isn't BOV the alternate hold for when BNN is out of service, based on a radial from BIG, co-located with the coordinates of BNN, if I recall correctly?

BOVVA is the alternate :ok:

Thanks. I knew it there in the back of my mind, but couldn't recall exactly.

Can any of you more knowledgeable guys account for why the VOR on Stapleford airfield is called LAMbourne, and the VOR on (former) Wisley airfield is called OCKham ? Biggin Hill manages the same name for both quite OK.

I'm up in Hampstead, and seem to get woken up by the early morning heavies and see a lot of the late evening arrivals from the Far East finalising their 'downwind', and if walking the dog up Kite Hill can clearly see their 'base leg' before lining up (thanks HD, had no idea of the phrase!).

As I work closely with a lot of Far East airlines I can always (and sorry for being dull) recognise the airlines in the evening - I tend to see most evenings, almost tailgating the BR 777 following the SQ 380, TG 747 and an EK 380 - but very few BA / VS birds (as I guess most of their Far East trench of flights arrive early am into LHR), and very little smaller.

So, I guess a follow up question is - is there actually a scheduled pattern for the early morning and late evening arrivals from the East to come over North London?
But US / Europe flights to be directed to another holding area? i.e. further South?
Or is it just my Far East bias that means I just don't notice any other airlines?

Landing on 27R from BIG, the aircraft hits the ILS around Clapham/Brixton then and gets handed over to Hearthow Tower around EGLW?

ps Which is preferred Aircraft or Airplane?

PhineasC.. After a lifetime in ATC I never heard of an aircraft in the air hitting the ILS! The point at which aircraft establish on the ILS is determined by the radar controllers and can be anywhere from 6 to 20+ miles from touchdown.

The point at which aircraft are transferred to Heathrow Tower is variable and is not until the aircraft has reported fully established on the ILS.

Airplane is an Americanism. Aeroplane is preferred I suggest.

Sam Bee. The holding areas to which aircraft are cleared depend on their routes into the UK. Traffic from the north goes to Bovingdon. This includes internal Shuttles from Scotland, Manchester and also trans-Atlantic traffic using northerly routes. Traffic from the east goes to Lambourne; that from the southeast to Biggin and from the west and southwest to Ockham. As already mentioned, when one particularly hold is busy (or full up) traffic will be directed to one of the others.

119 to Croydon Airport (Colonnades)
 

The thing that amazed me when I rode the 119 to the New Year Aerojumble at Croydon was that it's a 24/7 round-the-clock bus service (like many buses in London. now)

I apologize for the unfortunate terminology, I think what I meant is called intercept, that is the point at which the aeroplane detects the ILS and is available for the pilots to use if they choose.

Phileas Fogg
 

I shall probably live to regret letting people know what I got up to as a little lad in Wimbledon, BUT if you want to relive those joyous days of old look at this website... busesatwork.co.uk and you'll find complete histories of all those routes.

Talking of ILS their localiser range can be quite long. I can remember 'locking-on' to the ILS at Gan (southerly part of the Maldives) from over 90 miles out in a Hercules.

> Can any of you more knowledgeable guys account for why the VOR on
> Stapleford airfield is called LAMbourne, and the VOR on (former) Wisley
> airfield is called OCKham ? Biggin Hill manages the same name for both
> quite OK.

Ocham VOR started life as Wisley (coding WIS). However, there were several "interesting" events when Wisley was misheard for Ibsley (coding IBY), which was another VOR just north of Ringwood in Hampshire. So, Wisley was changed to Ockham to avoid such confusion, and has remained so even well after the demise of Ibsley.

I seem to recall that Lambourne started life as Ongar (coding ONG). Although I cannot be sure, I suspect it was changed for similar reasons.

Then we have Bovingdon that used to be called Garston, and Midhurst that was intended to be called Blackdown. The latter actually transmitted as BLA during its test phase, but was already Midhurst when it came into service.

NN

Interesting, I heard years ago that MID is actually located at Northchapel but that was considered potentialy difficult for overseas pilots to pronounce, hence Midhurst. Looking at the map I see Blackdown Hiil is just west of Northchapel - is the VOR actually on the hill?

<<I seem to recall that Lambourne started life as Ongar (coding ONG)>>

As in "We're coming up on Mrs Ongar's coffee shop...", as said to me by a TWA pilot one day!

Bovingdon started life moons ago as Watford and was later called Leavesden too.

Does this help explain anything?

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2011-06-02.pdf

Well... I'll reply from the pilots point of view rather than all of these Tower geezer types. It's easier to fly a 'U' shape than an 'X' or 'F'... Too many 'g' in the pull through to the middle slash bit....

'W's are okay in an F16, but a bit of a bugger in a 340......... We 340 guys like the 'L' or 'I' shapes:ok::ok::ok:

Hope this helps:)

The VOR is to the East of Northchapel conveniently marked as beacon on OS maps.

Ah, thanks eglnyt, my reference map at work was a fairly dodgy road atlas - I'll dig out my 1.25000!