Airprox over London tonight (Wed)?
 

Some suggestion that there was a fairly hairy airprox over Dulwich / Crystal Palace around 2000 tonight? An A330 or similar, almost going up the tailpipe of a 737 and having to make a very tight right turn to get out of trouble?

Really?

And where did this suggestion eminate from?

Me. I was at a barbecue in Dulwich and looked up when I heard engine noise suddenly increase. (I see and hear aircraft overhead there all day so I'm used to what is "usual" and what's not).
Both aircraft were at the end of a right turn, seemed to be at very similar altitude and extremely close laterally. I've never seen any so close. Second, faster, aircraft suddenly powered up, dropped right wing and turned very sharply.
(I know this sounds like the ramblings of a civilian, but believe me it was extremely unusual.)

Mr Read - I am afraid that yes, it does sound like ramblings!!!

I am sure that whatever you saw looked quite hairy to you, but please remember that your angle of view will have distorted the real picture. It is incredibly hard to judge how close two aircraft are when viewed from below, especially if the aircraft are at altitude.

Expressions like "going up the tailpipe of..." do not help either - its the kind of language used by sensationalist journalists.

Please rest assured that the aircarft in the skies above your head, whether you are in Dulwich or Biggin Hill are safely controlled by experienced Radar controllers, and flown by professional pilots, not boy racers!

Hope this helps!

Mr Chips

Don't know about that - but I do know about the LH2023 ATR72 which had to make a hard left turn on its way into FRA on 14 May 04 - because I was sitting in 18A at the time and had a spectacular view of the world below. I estimate around 40 deg AoB - and no explanations offered........

Sure it wasn't just a normal turn BEagle? Or was there some G-force felt?

BEagle - there could be so many reasons for that turn.... doesn't have a great bearing on this "issue"!!!

Uhmmmm... To all LONDON ATC Controllers, I do think highly of you and always say this to others when asked which ATC I think is the best (apart from the SA okes, they are also TOPS and many others too),...

BUT...

to Mr. Willard...Chips, let's not forget that which happened over Ueberlingen. (I know that Ueberlingen is NOT in or near London, but still... you understand me...:ok:

Safe, vigilant flying:)

I have no idea what "Wilard" refers to....

I also don't see the connection between Ueberlingen and someone claiming to have witnessed an airprox whilst on the ground in Dulwich.

I have tried to be nice in my answers... but to be honest I have spent so much of my career being told by people that "two aircraft nearly crashed". Add in the sensatioanlist wording an dthe "I should know, I've seen aircraft before" and you will hopefuly understand why we get just a wee bit sick of this...

Bringing in a completely unrelated accident doesn't help anyone

Mr Chips

How is it unrelated Mr Chips?

I think issue is taken due to your comments implying that "nothing can ever go wrong." OK, the original poster may have made some assumptions, but he was rightly curious. Sadly, there are few, if any, forums in which that can be expressed.

In answer to the original question.

No there wasn't.

End of.

Eal - I have never suggested that "nothing can ever go wrong". In my job, we are fully aware of what can go wrong. What I am trying to point out here is that people standing at a BBQ in Dulwich are very unlikely to be able to spot what is and isn't an Airprox.

I have no problem with curiosity, I am sick of the people on these forums that shoot anyone down in flames who asks a question. However, in this particular case, how would you like us to respond? if you go back to the original post...


Suggestion from where? Well, actually from himself.
The kind of wording I would expect from a tabloid journo.

I would like to think that I gave a rational answer - the angles from the ground are deceiving and generally a/c over London are safely operated. What more can I say? Simply reminding us that sometimes it does go wrong and people lose their lives doesn't have much bearing on this.

Like I say - I have dealt with this many many times over the last 16 or so years...

Chips

I'm with Mr Chips on this one.

Over the last 32 years I can't remember the number of times I have been called to account for some alleged loss of separation seen by a plonker in his back garden who takes it upon himself to phone up West Drayton to complain.

Mr G.

quote ...... "Sure it wasn't just a normal turn BEagle"

well if BEagle's story is doubted then there is no hope for sread's ..... thats for sure !!!!

Only asking the question!!!!

Based on a recent final approach in a BA 747 feeling like the plane was in the control of untrained monkeys, it's easy for us in the back to misinterpret the manoeuvres being initiated up front. A normal turn can easily seem like something else.

eal401 - I've flown with Eurowings on the ATR72 FDH-FRA route plenty of times, but had never previously experienced the roll rate, bank angle and g force involved in the event I referred to.

Upon roll out I noticed a wide body type co-alt with us to starboard. I imagine that a hard turn had been directed by ATC to avoid loss of IFR sep. Not in any way an Airprox - and obviously not a TCAS manoeuvre as no climb or descent was involved.

Well, some time ago some silly pax sent the girl up front to say "I just saw another aircraft nearby".
I sent her back saying tell him "he's lucky it wasn't a bloody lorry".
Hahahahaha, even made myself laugh.

Mentaleena - The long winter nights must fly by in your house.

Is it remotely possible that what sread thought he saw actually occured? I don't have the faintest idea where Dulwich is in relation to the Mecca of aviation that is the SE of England but I do know that none of us are infallible. The ATCO in Brest ACC that descended an Air Nostrum CRJ through our level, opposite direction today certainly wasn't. Mistakes do occur.

BEagle,

Could it have been a wake vortex encounter from the wide-body or some other unseen a/c?

Not an unknown ocurrence in the terminal environment, unfortunately.

WF.

Codman, Dulwich is in South East London just South of the river.

Quite a few aluminum tubes pass over there of a day, but, living just a few miles away myself, I can't see what sread saw occurring there. Mind you, were we on 27 or 09?

However, sread, as much as I dont agree with your wording of the initial question, you may like to keep an eye out for your observations on the CAA website (caa.co.uk) who log UK airproxes.

Beagle, have to say I had the same kind of thing as a pax a while back heading GCI-LGW although I had a nice view of the sky instead. Made a sharp hard left halfway across the channel just in time to see a 737 turning away to starboard. Again by no means an airprox (so I thought) but brightened up the journey somewhat!