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The cockpit door

Old 25th Dec 2002, 01:57
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The cockpit

Hi all and a merry xmas.

After Sep11 last year the doors to the cockpit were closed to everyone. (barr a few exceptions). The doors were supposed to be closed and locked before takeoff and opened after landing.(or there abouts).

I was recently flying to the US and sure enough this was inforced. Good on them.

However I then jumped onboard an United flight around the states and low and behold the door to the cockpit was left open for passengers boarding. Okay I thought they'll close it for taxi and takeoff.

Nope, the door stayed open for the entire flight.

What gives???

Coming to America the doors are closed but once in America they are left wide open?

Am I missing something here????
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Old 25th Dec 2002, 02:26
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Doors...

I seriously doubt that a UNITED flight departed with the doors open....

but you may have flown on UNITED EXPRESS which, depending on the aircraft, may not have had a cockpit door installed.

If it is United Express, please remember that you are not flying on United, but a contracted subcarrier who cannot afford services like a reservations system. The paint on the aircraft may be the same, but.........

It would be nice if you would email me the date and flight number; I can search the computers and tell you more about your flight.




Merrry Christmas
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Old 25th Dec 2002, 23:19
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If it is United Express, please remember that you are not flying on United, but a contracted subcarrier who cannot afford services like a reservations system. The paint on the aircraft may be the same, but.........


Well, let's hope United can keep afording it.....

As far as I know none of their express carriers are in Chapter 11..
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Old 26th Dec 2002, 03:16
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UAL pays their Express partners 16 cents a mile flown. It is on a departure basis, whether or not the airplane is full or empty.

United own seat costs are between 11 & 12 cents a mile, depending on which source you access.

Go figure. I certainly can't.
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Old 26th Dec 2002, 04:10
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it was a united flight between LA and chicago.

very friendly crew from san fran. very camp guy who never stopped talking.

and yes the door was left open. the captain came out at least twice to go to the head.

it was an A320.
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Old 26th Dec 2002, 11:06
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I have always been aware that if a US carrier did not lock the door for takeoff, it was a $10,000 fine if an FAA inspector caught them. That was imposed in the 1970's after all the hijackings to Cuba and therefore well before Sept. the 11th hijackings. The rationale was that most hijackings occur soon after takeoff, so to keep the door locked then was paramount. Such behaviour now is foolish, and surely punishable by a much bigger fine?.
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Old 26th Dec 2002, 13:52
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kavu

The fact that the Captain came out to go to the head is not relevant to this debate.

If you gotta go, you gotta go.
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Old 27th Dec 2002, 04:23
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Lightbulb

Just a question (I usually have several, and would hate to now let anyone down).

With the newer cockpit doors on our twin-turbofan so-called "city-hopper" models, we have NO light or beeper in the cockpit to indicate whether the door is locked or not. We push and pull them after the lead FA closes it. There have been more than a few such planes which have taken off and the door has swung open. It was quite interesting when it happened with an Air Marshal sitting towards the front. You should see the numerous pages in our COM Supplemental section which attempts to explain these doors and the various combinations of functions. Many pilots' understanding of this info is not very clear.

Do some aircraft have indications which tell the crew that the door is locked or not quite locked?
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Old 27th Dec 2002, 04:58
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Kavu,

I think what we are talking about is confused by syntax.

At our company, which would be the mainline flight you took from ORD to LAX, the cockpit is locked and barred from pushback to arrival. That procedure has been in effect since the late 70's. Because of Crew interaction, (between Cabin and Cockpit), I cannot imagine the door being left unlocked and unbarred.

However, there are several exemptions which allow the crew to come out during taxi and flight, and I think this is what confuses you.

For instance, mandatory by regulations, to ascertain the conditions of the wings pertaining to de-icing before take off.

For physiological needs, bathroom, perhaps walking to prevent deep vein thrombosis.

To deal with certain irregular procedures.

And there are others which could be justified.

There is a protocol to be followed by both the cockpit and cabin crew if the cockpit dooor is open in flight, however , this forum is not the place to post it.

Inclosing, I'd like to point out that the salient point is not the crew coming out.

It is about other people getting into the cockpit.
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Old 27th Dec 2002, 09:46
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kavu
Since it looks like the Captain could get into trouble for not enforcing the rule (which many people have always thought was stupid anyway) best not to provide any information which could identify him.
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Old 28th Dec 2002, 00:03
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The captain went to the head TWICE from LA to ORD. Weenie.
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Old 29th Dec 2002, 04:10
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Locking of Flt Deck Door

As we all know, the locking of our cockpit doors at all times are a MUST now. Some airline, or rather ONE airline I know practices this at the expense of the ASSIST CABIN CREW. Right after his/her safety demo in the cabin, this person rushes towards the cockpit and occupies one of the jumpseat just to operate the latches which were recently retrofitted to the cockpit doors. This person will only leaves the cocpit after the seatbelt sign's switched off and one of the pilots gets to leave his seat to latch the door during climb, cruise and descent. For any nature call, the pilot shall be replaced by any cabin crew member to safeguard the door from inside until he comes back. SAFETY IS UNCOMPROMISEABLE but will this sort of practices help????
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Old 29th Dec 2002, 08:17
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I still think the decision on flight-deck access should be the captain's. He (or she) is responsible for just about every other safety aspect of the aircraft while in flight, so I don't see why this one should be up to the government.
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Old 29th Dec 2002, 08:44
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I suggest you add your comments to the long discussions that have run in the past rather than start a new thread on this hacked to death subject. For a start, why not be a bit more precise about what airline you are talking about and what your criticism is and what you suggest doing about people whose ambition is to kill as many innocents as possible?
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Old 29th Dec 2002, 08:46
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The goverment decides minimum requirement about everything Kalium Cloride:
Your education
How your check ride is build up
What your crew composition is
Your fuel requirements
Your oilrequirements
Your minimum weather requirements
Your alternate requirements
Your blood alcohol level
Your minimum rest requirements
How the aircraft you fly is build
And I could keep on going

You name it the goverments regulate it.
 
Old 29th Dec 2002, 10:36
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In addition to what tcas climb says:

and if something goes wrong it will be the company, or you that has to defend itself in court against claims from passengers or others. The government makes the rules but neatly avoids being actually legally responsible for anything.
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Old 29th Dec 2002, 12:08
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Point taken, Tcas, but I still think there's a difference between basic overall regulated requirements and the on-board operational decisions which are left to the people who know best, ie the crew.
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Old 30th Dec 2002, 05:35
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I remember a lot discussions after 9-11, most were, should we or should'nt we lock the door. I used to fly with the door open also during taxi and almost all cabin crew liked it. But most cabin crew also like that the door is now locked, they are very aware that we are not supermen, that will come rescue them if a highjacker put a knife to their throat. The reason for this is that the cabin crew knows that the potentional highjacker knows that is how it is.

The determined, with no regard for him self and anyone else, highjacker is offcause harder to to deal with and carefull considderation, about how to deal with such a sitiuation, should have been done by all flightcrew.

What I'm saying is that comen rules makes procedures simple, but I'll give you, it's stupid that crew can not sit in cockpit jumpseats.
 
Old 30th Dec 2002, 15:49
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Sorry. I just don't believe it. The door is required to be closed and locked. I can't believe any Captain would put his job on the line by violating a FAR so flagrantly where everyone could see it. I also can't believe that the cabin crew and F/O would take him to task for it. If a captain I flew with didn't close and lock the door, according to company and FAR regulations, you can bet that aircraft might go somewhere sometime, but not with me inside it. And then the captain could explain to the chief pilot why his F/O walked off the aircraft and used the jetbridge phone to call union professional standards and the company's chief pilot.
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Old 30th Dec 2002, 17:13
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Roadtrip, as we don't fly according to FAR rules all over the world and our company procedures let it be up to the captain weather the door should be closed or open, I chose the latter. We quite often had cockpit visits during cruise and Joe pupblic apreiciated it!
 

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