Why so few girls ?
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In My Humble Opinion
Nice incisions.. Femalesurgeon.. 
This whole thread rendered me inarticulate for a while
Now there's nothing incorrect about posters' quoting personal experience, or even if they have no experience at all..the post then stands on its own merits. Nothing incorrect about the term "In my humble opinion".
However, in discussing the female/male differences the sourcing to "authoritative" references - either literature or individuals - is inevitably going to attract critical comment from others who do not recognise a source as been credidble, or sees the source as a misquote or taken out of context. Particularly this thread where there is sound psychological and sociobiological research that partially refutes and in some totally refutes many of the posters' sources.
Just the same the topic is a relevant and valid discussion.. in my humble opinion.
This whole thread rendered me inarticulate for a while
Now there's nothing incorrect about posters' quoting personal experience, or even if they have no experience at all..the post then stands on its own merits. Nothing incorrect about the term "In my humble opinion".
However, in discussing the female/male differences the sourcing to "authoritative" references - either literature or individuals - is inevitably going to attract critical comment from others who do not recognise a source as been credidble, or sees the source as a misquote or taken out of context. Particularly this thread where there is sound psychological and sociobiological research that partially refutes and in some totally refutes many of the posters' sources.
Just the same the topic is a relevant and valid discussion.. in my humble opinion.
Last edited by Skylark; 13th Sep 2002 at 00:25.
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I also could not claim them as my own opinion, they were from other people, I found them interesting and relevant to this discussion, but never claimed them as a substantial source.
When fellow female pilots are dissing their own kind, it adds substance to the male attitudes put forward by Seriph.
There are undoubtedly poor male pilots and poor female pilots, unfortunately, when the pot of one is small, people will always remember the bad not the good. Thus giving the dominant majority the chance to moan about all the bad female pilots they remember, just try and get them to praise a female pilot without managing to add, but Joe Bloggs is better and not bad for a girl!!
I can always remember my crap landings but the ones I greased on, soon fade into the past
When fellow female pilots are dissing their own kind, it adds substance to the male attitudes put forward by Seriph.
There are undoubtedly poor male pilots and poor female pilots, unfortunately, when the pot of one is small, people will always remember the bad not the good. Thus giving the dominant majority the chance to moan about all the bad female pilots they remember, just try and get them to praise a female pilot without managing to add, but Joe Bloggs is better and not bad for a girl!!
I can always remember my crap landings but the ones I greased on, soon fade into the past
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I've come in on this rather late, so will probably be repeating a lot of what has already been said, however, I would like to add my personal perspective!
I'm not a professional pilot, I'm a low hour PPL, but I've still enough experience to say that aviation seems to have a much higher degree of sexism than a lot of other male-dominated areas that I've worked/played in.
Most of my time is spent in a microbiology laboratory, where there are 2:1 men to women. Some of my spare time is spent playing saxophone in a semi-professional band - again 2:1 men to women. Another portion of my spare time is spent walking up mountains, wild camping half way up, and generally getting wet and dirty (no comments please!!) All these would traditionally be seen as male-orientated, but I've never experienced any discrimination, either negative or positive. ...although it's only recently that manufacturers of outdoor clothing have acknowledged that some of us have hips and breasts
It came as a complete shock when I decided to learn to fly, and experienced extreme reactions from men. Most of my flying group treat me as just another PPL. There was the usual assumption that my parents must be paying, but that was because I am still at university, not because I'm female. However, there is one member of my club who refused to even acknowledge my presence in the club house for the first year. Only once, when I was a student PPL, did someone ask whether I was waiting for my husband.
On the other side there were the airport employees who would just gawp at me. I remember taxiing away from the apron one day, and three men stood at the edge, arms folded across their chests, watching me as I passed. I couldn't resist giving them a quick wave.
Like Whirlybird I've had people assume my male passenger was the pilot. Just a few weeks ago I went for fuel, and my friend was asked how much he wanted.
Personally I think there's nothing wrong with aviation having fewer women in it... I would just like to be treated a little more normally!
I'm not a professional pilot, I'm a low hour PPL, but I've still enough experience to say that aviation seems to have a much higher degree of sexism than a lot of other male-dominated areas that I've worked/played in.
Most of my time is spent in a microbiology laboratory, where there are 2:1 men to women. Some of my spare time is spent playing saxophone in a semi-professional band - again 2:1 men to women. Another portion of my spare time is spent walking up mountains, wild camping half way up, and generally getting wet and dirty (no comments please!!) All these would traditionally be seen as male-orientated, but I've never experienced any discrimination, either negative or positive. ...although it's only recently that manufacturers of outdoor clothing have acknowledged that some of us have hips and breasts
It came as a complete shock when I decided to learn to fly, and experienced extreme reactions from men. Most of my flying group treat me as just another PPL. There was the usual assumption that my parents must be paying, but that was because I am still at university, not because I'm female. However, there is one member of my club who refused to even acknowledge my presence in the club house for the first year. Only once, when I was a student PPL, did someone ask whether I was waiting for my husband.
On the other side there were the airport employees who would just gawp at me. I remember taxiing away from the apron one day, and three men stood at the edge, arms folded across their chests, watching me as I passed. I couldn't resist giving them a quick wave.
Like Whirlybird I've had people assume my male passenger was the pilot. Just a few weeks ago I went for fuel, and my friend was asked how much he wanted.
Personally I think there's nothing wrong with aviation having fewer women in it... I would just like to be treated a little more normally!
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Come of it Aerbabe, your experience is not typical. Women in aviation are not new, it is only the rise of feminism that now chooses to blame men and 'sexist' attitudes for their failure to compete. After all, in the final analysis, if the girls were that much better surely the positions would be reversed and the men would be shouting unfair! As has been pointed out though, you are in a minority, the majority of women (95%) are not interested in flying, engineering, fire fighting, mining, driving etc, etc, etc. They have other priorities, in the main far more important. AND THAT IS NOT BEING PATRONISING. We will judge by achievement and results.
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Seriph
I guess there is a high probability that you are just trying to wind people up and, therefore, are best ignored. At the risk of falling for your bait, how the hell would you know whether AerBabe's experience in aviation is typical or not? There seems substantial evidence from many other (qualified) posters just on this thread to back up her claims.
Most of us who persist despite such attitudes are thick skinned (or thick) enough to cope with the wallies that express them. But one has to ask, "why the hell should we have to?" and "how many others have been put off by the sort of reactions that AerBabe and Whirlybird, to name but two, have endured."
There are other environments, believe me, where men are in the majority and some cannot cope with the challenge to their egos that competition from women brings. There are also a few women who use the label of discrimination to excuse themselves. But I fail to see any justification for institutionalised discrimination or so called "positive" discrimination.
There's something small about men with those attitues: small between the ears and/or small between the legs.
I guess there is a high probability that you are just trying to wind people up and, therefore, are best ignored. At the risk of falling for your bait, how the hell would you know whether AerBabe's experience in aviation is typical or not? There seems substantial evidence from many other (qualified) posters just on this thread to back up her claims.
Most of us who persist despite such attitudes are thick skinned (or thick) enough to cope with the wallies that express them. But one has to ask, "why the hell should we have to?" and "how many others have been put off by the sort of reactions that AerBabe and Whirlybird, to name but two, have endured."
There are other environments, believe me, where men are in the majority and some cannot cope with the challenge to their egos that competition from women brings. There are also a few women who use the label of discrimination to excuse themselves. But I fail to see any justification for institutionalised discrimination or so called "positive" discrimination.
There's something small about men with those attitues: small between the ears and/or small between the legs.
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Seriph,
Point of information - Aerbabe's experiences ARE typical. How do I know? They not only mirror my experiences; they are similar to a large number of women pilots who I know through the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association). Plus the fact that a female friend of mine, a flying instructor with over 20 years instructing experience, tends to put it even more strongly than either of us have. How would YOU know if it's typical or not?
Aerbabe never mentioned a failure to compete. She said she would like to be treated normally, as I would.
In the past women were barred from jobs in firefighting, flying, mining, driving, and the like. Now they are not. It will take time before all of them realise that; social attitudes always lag behind legislation. Only then will we know if many of them want to do such things. But whether many do or not, they should have the OPPORTUNITY, as individuals, to try and prove their ability to do the job, if they want to.
Anyway, this topic was "Why so few girls"? Some of us are stating what we perceive as the reasons, from our own experiences, typical or otherwise. So what is it about us doing that which bothers you?
Point of information - Aerbabe's experiences ARE typical. How do I know? They not only mirror my experiences; they are similar to a large number of women pilots who I know through the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association). Plus the fact that a female friend of mine, a flying instructor with over 20 years instructing experience, tends to put it even more strongly than either of us have. How would YOU know if it's typical or not?
Aerbabe never mentioned a failure to compete. She said she would like to be treated normally, as I would.
In the past women were barred from jobs in firefighting, flying, mining, driving, and the like. Now they are not. It will take time before all of them realise that; social attitudes always lag behind legislation. Only then will we know if many of them want to do such things. But whether many do or not, they should have the OPPORTUNITY, as individuals, to try and prove their ability to do the job, if they want to.
Anyway, this topic was "Why so few girls"? Some of us are stating what we perceive as the reasons, from our own experiences, typical or otherwise. So what is it about us doing that which bothers you?
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I have been in the aviation industry for 14 years ,the last 11 as an ATCO. When I first started there were still some dinosaurs around who objected strongly to women working in "their domain". Thankfully they have in the main retired, and I have personally found little or no discrimination.
There are however women around who discredit the vast majority of us who go to work and do the best possible job we can. They play the system for all it is worth.
If you want the career and the "prestige" that goes with it you have to play ball. Except for maternity leave you should never expect to be treated differently.
I am a girly girl, always will be, but I find that in recent years it has been other women who have let us down.
controversial maybe , buts thats my experience
Flower
There are however women around who discredit the vast majority of us who go to work and do the best possible job we can. They play the system for all it is worth.
If you want the career and the "prestige" that goes with it you have to play ball. Except for maternity leave you should never expect to be treated differently.
I am a girly girl, always will be, but I find that in recent years it has been other women who have let us down.
controversial maybe , buts thats my experience
Flower
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flower,
Controversial has nothing to do with it; you speak as you find it, as all of us have.
BUT...
How can other women discredit you or let you down? Why should every woman feel she is a representative of half the human race? If a man behaves badly, he is considered as an individual; if a woman does so it is thought to reflect on all other women.
And until that changes, don't waste time trying to convince me that we are anywhere remotely approaching equality.
Controversial has nothing to do with it; you speak as you find it, as all of us have.
BUT...
How can other women discredit you or let you down? Why should every woman feel she is a representative of half the human race? If a man behaves badly, he is considered as an individual; if a woman does so it is thought to reflect on all other women.
And until that changes, don't waste time trying to convince me that we are anywhere remotely approaching equality.
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At last a voice of reason, thankyou flower. AerBabe, a trip in a light aircraft with a female captain heh. Hmmmmmm now your talking sweetie, lots of gold braid and boots I hope, corrrrrrrr, wonder if FHM have thought of that one.
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Whirlybird,
one bad apple ruins the barrel. We are effectively the first generation of women able to "reach for the skies". Although there are some older ladies in aviation it is mainly peopled by those in their 30's and below. Many senior managers belong to our parents generation ,where women simply did not have the same opportunities. It is them who we have to convince that we are equal and up-to the task. You can not change attitudes quickly so yes we are probably judged as a group. Sexist ? maybe but probably not. 98% of my female colleagues play the game ,never ask for favours, become one of the lads and do a damn good job. But I know from personal experience that just 1 person taking everybody for a ride means I have to prove even more that I will not be doing the same.
It is up-to us to ensure that the next generation of girls think aviation is an excellent career choice, by ensuring that we give 100% at all times , thus ensuring our male colleagues can never complain about us as a group of women.
I have never experienced discrimination due to my gender in NATs
and when I have controlled women pilots (lovely to hear more and more of you on frequency) have never noticed any difference in the quality of flying between them and their male counterparts.
We will be judged for some time yet, pity the women fighter pilots who get their private life splashed across the Daily Mail, join in the banter ,give as good as they get ,it is probably that they are not sure how to handle you.
Aviation is fun we just have to spread the word.
Flower
one bad apple ruins the barrel. We are effectively the first generation of women able to "reach for the skies". Although there are some older ladies in aviation it is mainly peopled by those in their 30's and below. Many senior managers belong to our parents generation ,where women simply did not have the same opportunities. It is them who we have to convince that we are equal and up-to the task. You can not change attitudes quickly so yes we are probably judged as a group. Sexist ? maybe but probably not. 98% of my female colleagues play the game ,never ask for favours, become one of the lads and do a damn good job. But I know from personal experience that just 1 person taking everybody for a ride means I have to prove even more that I will not be doing the same.
It is up-to us to ensure that the next generation of girls think aviation is an excellent career choice, by ensuring that we give 100% at all times , thus ensuring our male colleagues can never complain about us as a group of women.
I have never experienced discrimination due to my gender in NATs
and when I have controlled women pilots (lovely to hear more and more of you on frequency) have never noticed any difference in the quality of flying between them and their male counterparts.
We will be judged for some time yet, pity the women fighter pilots who get their private life splashed across the Daily Mail, join in the banter ,give as good as they get ,it is probably that they are not sure how to handle you.
Aviation is fun we just have to spread the word.
Flower
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flower,
I fully understand and respect where you're coming from. But I personally don't think that in the long run that what you're saying is the way forward.
Firstly, if women are being considered as a group that IS SEXIST. Prejudice, by definition, is judging a whole group by your opinions of one person who has a certain characteristic shared by that group. Examples - all blacks are stupid, all Arabs are terrorists, all Pakistanis cook smelly food.....all women can't fly, or won't fit in.
I don't think you change prejudice by trying to impress the people concerned. I think that is actually playing thir game. I think you are better to ignore it, and do what YOU know is right, as an individual. You have to live YOUR own life, not react to others. They may learn something from that, or they may not.
But I wouldn't dream of telling YOU what to do in a difficult situation, which is obviously what you're describing. I'm simply describing MY way. And I've been living a long time, and now decided that I will simply be myself, and if people don't like that, tough. I do know that at various times on PPRuNe, on threads like this, I've had other women wish I'd shut up, clearly worried that I'll annoy the lads. Well, maybe I do annoy people. But if I shut up, isn't that simply doing what men have wanted women to do for generations? If I fit in, and play the game, and don't rock the boat even when it needs rocking...
Flower, I know you're talking about something slightly different. But maybe the same thing still applies.
I fully understand and respect where you're coming from. But I personally don't think that in the long run that what you're saying is the way forward.
Firstly, if women are being considered as a group that IS SEXIST. Prejudice, by definition, is judging a whole group by your opinions of one person who has a certain characteristic shared by that group. Examples - all blacks are stupid, all Arabs are terrorists, all Pakistanis cook smelly food.....all women can't fly, or won't fit in.
I don't think you change prejudice by trying to impress the people concerned. I think that is actually playing thir game. I think you are better to ignore it, and do what YOU know is right, as an individual. You have to live YOUR own life, not react to others. They may learn something from that, or they may not.
But I wouldn't dream of telling YOU what to do in a difficult situation, which is obviously what you're describing. I'm simply describing MY way. And I've been living a long time, and now decided that I will simply be myself, and if people don't like that, tough. I do know that at various times on PPRuNe, on threads like this, I've had other women wish I'd shut up, clearly worried that I'll annoy the lads. Well, maybe I do annoy people. But if I shut up, isn't that simply doing what men have wanted women to do for generations? If I fit in, and play the game, and don't rock the boat even when it needs rocking...
Flower, I know you're talking about something slightly different. But maybe the same thing still applies.
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Whirlybird
in principle I am with you 100% why should we be judged against the worst of the bunch? However reality set in with me a while back and I have found diplomacy to be my best tool.
As Churchill said "jaw jaw is better than war war "
I think we should just agree to differ.
Flower
in principle I am with you 100% why should we be judged against the worst of the bunch? However reality set in with me a while back and I have found diplomacy to be my best tool.
As Churchill said "jaw jaw is better than war war "
I think we should just agree to differ.
Flower
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Of course girls, you must perpetuate this myth of discrimination, for what other reason can you call upon to explain your failure to increase your numbers in the traditional male pursuits? I recall being assured in the 70's that a female would win the Indy 500 before the turn of the century, still waiting. I bet that in another 30 yrs the percentage of females in aviation is the same, because, quite simply the numbers at present reflect those that are interested in such pursuits. Airbabe, just what did you expect from your point about flying in a light aircraft with a female captain? Some of us fly big jets with female captains.