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Virgin Atlantic

Old 2nd Apr 2020, 12:41
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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I agree with wisecaptain's comments, VS are going to have to do some drastic cost reductions fast through redundancies/fleet/routes to get through this intact, they just don't have the cash reserves the likes of BA have built up over the last few years. Also I really can't see the UK government bailing them out, they'll need to look to Delta and SRB for more funds to survive this decimating of the aviation business we're currently experiencing.
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Old 2nd Apr 2020, 12:42
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wisecaptain View Post
Realistically , theres only one solution for VS = downsize
They will have to bin the most expensive to operate/finance airframes and reduce the scale of their operation frequencies,airframes,crews etc
Govt cant take a stake , its not supported by taxpayers who cant see a reason to support airlines as special cases.
Sad to say VS will have to furlough and or redundancies imho .... definite sense of de ja vu
I think you are being very optimistic!
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Old 2nd Apr 2020, 23:51
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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What a number of you are missing is the value of Virgin with the hard cash they have paid to HMRC, for many year, even when losing money. The company has had a major restructure over the last few years culminating in a modern, fuel efficient fleet - this hasn't been helped by the ongoing problems with RR engines for the B789.

So what are the numbers? Between £350-400 million per year to HMRC in various taxes. Money for the NHS and many other services. Without the downfall Virgin would soon have been profitable and increasing destinations and revenue, and yes more money to HMRC.

Letters to the government showing strong support of Virgin this week from Airbus, RR and Heathrow says a great deal as to their worth to the whole aviation community. Time will tell how much the government want a healthy, competitive airline industry.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 00:38
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Ask the great British public what they think of Virgin Atlantic Airways ? Today! Major share holder sitting on his Tax free island

If they are to survive - Its my guess that they will dump the 744's and A330's and just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator and 500 + Pilots will be put to rest.

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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 07:20
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Holer Moler View Post
just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator
Toulouse kept that one quiet ...
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 07:36
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
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I sincerely hope that is not the case.
One thing begs the question though, for the British pilots on a uk easa licence, does that mean they can only apply for g registered jobs in the uk nowadays?
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 07:39
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Holer Moler View Post
Ask the great British public what they think of Virgin Atlantic Airways ? Today! Major share holder sitting on his Tax free island

If they are to survive - Its my guess that they will dump the 744's and A330's and just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator and 500 + Pilots will be put to rest.
I guess they hung extra engines from the wing as a tribute to their old mantra.

The A330's are quite efficient for shorter routes (UK - US east coast) and have a common type rating with the A350, so there would not be a very good reason from that side for getting rid of them.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 07:51
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Losses for the last 3 years and only made a profit 3 times in the last 9 years. So how far back does VS want that bailout to cover?
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:19
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Angel

UK tax payers will want to see Virgin trying to raise cash , as instructed by Rishi Sunak the other day.
He wants Airlines to follow the Cruise ship companies example eg Carnival last Tuesday 31st March said that it is issuing $1.25 billion of stock while also taking on nearly $5 billion of additional debt. Also its turning to all corners of the capital markets to raise at least $6 billion of cash tapping Bond Mkt investors.
So why airlines think they can turn to the exchequer and the tax payers cheque book is a mystery ???
.... Sunak knows the mkts having been an investment fund manager etc etc with the likes of G.Sachs ..... he knows they will if they want to survive, theres plenty of avenues for them to go down in efforts to raise money !!!
Why they see themselves as a special case is they think they have Leverage with the Govt due to the numbers of employees and related businesses dependancy and their supply chains etc ..... Time to wake up Airlines , raise your own cash . The US Govt are taking a stake in their airlines for mainly one reason .... Boeing .
Uk doesnt have that desire with airbus and RR.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:25
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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.theres plenty of avenues for them to go down in efforts to raise money !!!
Really? It couldn't be a worse time to try and raise money - Not being publicly listed, Virgin can't do a rights issue, I very much doubt private equity or banks would be interested (apart from maybe an asset strip fire sale), tricky Dicky is rich, but not rich enough to keep it afloat single handed and other airlines have their own issues staying afloat ... And government help - well easyJet cooked the goose for all UK airlines by paying out a dividend while pleading for cash, which went down like a lead balloon with exchequer - even highly profitable and solvent banks which have never asked the government for a penny (eg HSBC, Barclays) cancelled their divi payouts due this week.

Last edited by Sick; 3rd Apr 2020 at 09:48.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:49
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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I would have thought that if Virgin are deemed to be a strategic asset the way for HMG to support it would be via a nationalisation. The business would be acquired from the receivers in much the same way Rolls Royce was nationalised back in 1971, and could then be privatised at a later date so the taxpayer receives a return on their investment.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 10:01
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
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So how much money does Virgin need that is an impossible question to answer, revenue has gone, summer trade won't happen and winter in normal times is lean so they will need cash to survive for one full year without much business, the question to ask is went do you think it will turn around and you start to see the business bounce back?, the difficulty for the government is if they don't give enough money to support the company then its waisted money, when thing turn BA will flood the market and grab what little business is around, RB and the exchequer need figure out an amount, impossible task as the virus will set the timeline, good luck for the future.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 10:10
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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I’d rather bailouts go to urgently funding the health services in this country. Not this continued loss making entity.
Are you bonkers. Slipped in yesterday £13.5 BILLION of NHS England Trusts debt written off by the Government. That is our taxes if I can remind you.

The 2020 NHS England budget is in excess of £138 BILLION. If I believe the BEEB it is still a total shambles and in meltdown. Where is the money going??
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 10:22
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Desperate times = desperate measures ..... there is always someone willing to buy ... its always a matter of price .
Branson could easily get investors on board , not the best time after a 30% drop in the mkts but it will get a lot worse over the coming year so Now is a relatively good time for VS to go to find the money it needs.
If the UK tax payer stumps up and takes a share or in fact private investors, then they will want proper accountability from the company and its management.
You think Branson wants that level of transparency ?? In which case he will have to put his Billions on the line .... just for his share in an airline .... I wonder ???
Probably not , but it could be the difference between survival or shrinking to a size that cannot operate successfully and ultimately its demise.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 10:26
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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NHS ....Thats a public service ...... not a private company . Big difference and the NHS is beloved to the UK , its saving peoples lives right now so has unending public support and is a Political hot potato at the forefront of Boris political promise list ......
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 11:01
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Originally Posted by ImPlaneCrazy View Post
Don't be surprised if you never see that ship sail - in Virgin colours at least... it's sale value of around $850m must be quite appealing right now to RB, although the problem will be finding someone to buy it.
Dont underestimate the significance of that last bit. The ship isn’t worth much more to anyone else than it is to RB for the same reason...
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 09:31
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
RB has made some money from a few of his ventures, but never from Virgin Atlantic, which long term seems to have consumed more money that it generated.

Old definition of How do you Become a Millionaire in Airline Ownership. Answer : Start as a Billionaire.
Strange how the Company made no money on a 2.5 billion turnover, Oh they spent 582 million of that on marketing! Perhaps that where it disappeared too, NECKER
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 09:47
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Of course VA makes cash ! It just gets absorbed into the group and probably used as some form of tax avoidance .
VA will get bailed out and things will continue as normal .
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 12:05
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Originally Posted by Riskybis View Post
Of course VA makes cash ! It just gets absorbed into the group and probably used as some form of tax avoidance .
VA will get bailed out and things will continue as normal .
You reckon?! No airline will continue “as normal”. Look back at how VS has dealt with downturns in the past, this is far more serious..

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Old 4th Apr 2020, 12:09
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Originally Posted by fruitbat View Post
You reckon?! No airline will continue “as normal”. Look back at how VS has dealt with downturns in the past, this is far more serious..
People will still be desperate to travel when the restrictions have been lifted ,
I reckon the government will give more than 500mil to VS , I wouldn’t be surprised if Delta gave some cash also (I know they are not meant to , but these are extraordinary times and they own 49% )
I know people want to see the collapse of virgin , yes it will probably shrink but that will be getting rid of the 747 &340s which they have basically done .
but I think this ship will keep sailing , sometimes it’s good to be a small fish in a big pond , to be able to quickly adapt is vital
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