Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner)
Reload this Page >

What was considered long-haul in the 70s and what now?

Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

What was considered long-haul in the 70s and what now?

Old 31st May 2019, 18:47
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 11,823
Likes: 0
Received 27 Likes on 23 Posts
To me Short Haul was within Europe or West Russia , Long Haul was other areas, ie Africa, Asia, Americas or East Russia, ie BEA or BOAC. Remember BOAC flew from Oceanic terminal.
Nowadays Short haul is up to 3 hours, Med haul up to 6 Hours , Long Haul up to 12 hours and ULH the rest regardless of aircraft types

Kiltrash is online now  
Old 31st May 2019, 19:07
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Meikleour
Rog747: Cathay Pacific were doing HKG-LGW direct with B747-267 in 1986! My longest such sector 14:45 Most airlines only introduced ULH with the arrival of the B747-400
Yes indeed they did, and they were with the RR RB211 747-200's (which BA obtained their RR -236's a few years after) but our post started with how the venerable old -100 series did perform as well (not so well lol)

cheers for that though R
rog747 is offline  
Old 31st May 2019, 19:09
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Stockport MAN/EGCC
Age: 70
Posts: 991
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
One historical legacy at BA, which still applies, is that flight numbers from BA1 to BA299 are nominally longhaul (with odd numbers used outbound from the UK and even numbers inbound), whereas flight numbers BA300 and above are shorthaul and use the opposite convention (even outbound, odd inbound).
Sorry Dave,
Man -JFK back in the day was BA537/538 in BOAC days. BA637/638 was Toronto/Montreal. Both services routed via Prestwick until our runway entention was finished.
Be lucky
David
The AvgasDinosaur is offline  
Old 31st May 2019, 19:33
  #24 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
Thanks - the subject of these times fascinates me - and has done since a boy. Very lucky to then enjoy a career working with those aircraft during those times...

Developments of the 747 later in the 70's (one can also include the 747SP) culminating in the 747-400 almost 20 years later, were the true long haulers for all the Legacy airlines making LHR-SIN, BKK HKG JNB CPT and South America truly non-stop.
How did they fly to South America back then? Especially to places like Buenos Aires and Santiago. Where were the stopovers? I'm looking at DKR-SCL, and it's still a VERY long way away. How long was the "radio gap" back then? Even now there is one between Rio and Dakar. It must've been even worse then.

And, if you're still not tired of questions, has there ever been a stopover at the Azores for any flights?
ProPax is offline  
Old 31st May 2019, 19:46
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
No problem - the Azores has, was, and still is used as a tech stop (or an ETOPS refuge) since the days of piston airliners. Back in the 70's for instance both Monarch and Court Line used the islands for fuel when flying from LTN to St Lucia
using 720B and L1011's
rog747 is offline  
Old 31st May 2019, 20:23
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,441
Received 111 Likes on 60 Posts
Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
Sorry Dave,
Man -JFK back in the day was BA537/538 in BOAC days. BA637/638 was Toronto/Montreal. Both services routed via Prestwick until our runway entention was finished.

No argument there.

But by "legacy" I was referring to when the BA designator was first used for all British Airways flights post-merger, i.e. 1974-ish onwards, not to BOAC/BEA flight numbers while they were separate airlines.

Some 40+ years later, the demarcation still holds - that's a fair old legacy.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 00:48
  #27 (permalink)  
ZFT
N4790P
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 73
Posts: 2,252
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
Re the SAA 747 ops LHR-South Africa and v.v - Most interesting, thanks, to note your comments about some SAA 747 non-stops - Was this done from the start of SuperB ops or was it later on with the SP?

Of course there was then also the overfly ban for South Africa (anti apartheid) so SAA had to route down out over the Atlantic hence Sal in the Cape Verde's was used to tech stop.

Re early BA 747-100 Ops to NBO - my pal (CC CSD long retired) just said they always had to stop in Rome or somewhere both ways...
LH flew three days a week FRA-NBO-JNB, 747-100 at first.

TIA Rog.
It certainly wasn't the SP. (I don't recall them ever on the LHR route.) The time frame for the Upington stop was just before I left SAA so around 1976 - 1978 so IIRC the 74 Classics had been upgraded to Super B by then. (don't think the Upington tech stop lasted too long as I remember sitting on the ground waiting for the temp to drop to get the last drop of fuel in before setting off north).
ZFT is online now  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 07:44
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ZFT
It certainly wasn't the SP. (I don't recall them ever on the LHR route.) The time frame for the Upington stop was just before I left SAA so around 1976 - 1978 so IIRC the 74 Classics had been upgraded to Super B by then. (don't think the Upington tech stop lasted too long as I remember sitting on the ground waiting for the temp to drop to get the last drop of fuel in before setting off north).
Thanks = the SP went on the LHR-CPT iirc
rog747 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 08:05
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,441
Received 111 Likes on 60 Posts


Boeing 747SP-44 - South African Airways | Aviation Photo #1170452 | Airliners.net
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 09:44
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
South America BUA and Africa VC-10 and 1-11

Originally Posted by ProPax
How did they fly to South America back then? Especially to places like Buenos Aires and Santiago. Where were the stopovers? I'm looking at DKR-SCL, and it's still a VERY long way away. How long was the "radio gap" back then?
BUA took over the loss making South America routes from BOAC in 1964 and had ordered two VC-10's, plus added one more, ex Ghana AW (NTU), and the ex-prototype added in 1969.

BUA (then BCAL) flew the VC-10 from LGW to South America via Madrid Lisbon, with fuel at Las Palmas (calls were on different days)
They served Rio, Buenos Aires Montevideo and Santiago
A third weekly frequency, which routed through Freetown to/from Buenos Aires, and permitted BUA to alter its South American route pattern.
As a result, one flight terminated in Brazil and end-to-end travelling times on the new Gatwick Freetown Buenos Aires Santiago service reduced by over two hours compared with the previous routeing. BUA managed to do the route in 19 hours to SCL.

BUA also flew the VC-10 on flights LGW to Freetown Accra and Robertsfield, and to East and Central Africa from Gatwick to Entebbe (non-stop), Nairobi, Ndola, Lusaka and Salisbury

BUA's VC10s also had extended wingtips that were slightly bent downwards to reduce the aircraft's cruise drag and to help it overcome the instability encountered when entering a stall, as well as an intermediate, 14-degree flap setting to enable all-year round, nonstop flights from the then relatively short runway at Nairobi's hot-and-high Embakasi Airport to Gatwick with a full payload and reserves.
BUA were to order two stretched Super VC-10's but these were never built.

BUA also became the only airline in the world to operate BAC One-Elevens on an intercontinental, long-haul scheduled route, when it introduced the -200 series on its multi-stop West African service linking Gatwick with Lagos via Lisbon, Las Palmas, Bathurst, Freetown and Accra.

This is good

rog747 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 09:45
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Received 10 Likes on 9 Posts
[QUOTE

Also how would one class the great BOAC route from Tokyo to Jo burg via Hong Kong . Colombo Seychelles Mauritius[/QUOTE]
Flew it a few times on the VC10, definitely long haul !!!
RetiredBA/BY is online now  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 09:50
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
calling at all stations....

Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY
[QUOTE

Also how would one class the great BOAC route from Tokyo to Jo burg via Hong Kong . Colombo Seychelles Mauritius

Flew it a few times on the VC10, definitely long haul !!!
[/QUOTE]

Indeed -- and not too dissimilar to BUA's BAC One-Eleven 200 sojourn down the Empire on their intercontinental, long-haul multi-stop West African service linking Gatwick with Lagos via Lisbon, Las Palmas, Bathurst, Freetown and Accra. !!
rog747 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 10:49
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Bali H'ai
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cape Town to London

I and my wife and a 5 month old daughter had the good fortune to fly on the first SAA 747SP scheduled flight CPT-LHR on 1st April 1977, I recall on entering the aircraft seeing the plaque commemorating the delivery flight from Everett to CPT.
We were on ZS-SPA "Matroosberg".

On 30th April 1981 we departed Johannesburg for London, now with 2 daughters. Before takeoff we were advised that industrial action by Heathrow ATC may result in a diversion, which we were made to understand meant Amsterdam or Paris.
When push came to shove the industrial action did happen and we landed at Stansted!
In a conversation with the Captain several years later it transpired that we were flightplanned to Stansted, with Heathrow as alternate.

Now imagine those early days at Stansted, the old terminal, our 747-200 towered over the building with the queue for immigration stretching outside and under the wing.

There were 2 (TWO) taxis on the rank, I commandeered one to Bishops Stortford railway station, and we took the train to Cambridge and home.
Sultan Ismail is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:26
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,538
Likes: 0
Received 28 Likes on 12 Posts
R747,, nice stop overs on that route though.
Has to be one of the most exotic routes ever along with a Qantas 70's flight in their shortened 707s LHR-Nassau Mexico City Papeetee /Tahiti Sydney, so called fiesta route-the leg out of MEX altitude must have been a challenge at times -definately Long haul
pax britanica is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:50
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 647
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by pax britanica
R747,, nice stop overs on that route though.
Has to be one of the most exotic routes ever along with a Qantas 70's flight in their shortened 707s LHR-Nassau Mexico City Papetee /Tahiti Sydney, so called fiesta route-the leg out of MEX altitude must have been a challenge at times -definitely Long haul
Ah yes - the Fiesta Route - a nice alternative to the Kangaroo Route - what was the others called ?
Southern Cross, Coral route ?
rog747 is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 02:53
  #36 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,822
Received 90 Likes on 33 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
Ah yes - the Fiesta Route - a nice alternative to the Kangaroo Route - what was the others called ?
Southern Cross, Coral route ?
In the days when Qantas actually flew to places.
SOPS is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 12:36
  #37 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
BUA (then BCAL) flew the VC-10 from LGW to South America via Madrid Lisbon, with fuel at Las Palmas (calls were on different days)
They served Rio, Buenos Aires Montevideo and Santiago
A third weekly frequency, which routed through Freetown to/from Buenos Aires, and permitted BUA to alter its South American route pattern.
As a result, one flight terminated in Brazil and end-to-end travelling times on the new Gatwick Freetown Buenos Aires Santiago service reduced by over two hours compared with the previous routeing. BUA managed to do the route in 19 hours to SCL.

BUA also flew the VC-10 on flights LGW to Freetown Accra and Robertsfield, and to East and Central Africa from Gatwick to Entebbe (non-stop), Nairobi, Ndola, Lusaka and Salisbury

BUA's VC10s also had extended wingtips that were slightly bent downwards to reduce the aircraft's cruise drag and to help it overcome the instability encountered when entering a stall, as well as an intermediate, 14-degree flap setting to enable all-year round, nonstop flights from the then relatively short runway at Nairobi's hot-and-high Embakasi Airport to Gatwick with a full payload and reserves.
BUA were to order two stretched Super VC-10's but these were never built.

BUA also became the only airline in the world to operate BAC One-Elevens on an intercontinental, long-haul scheduled route, when it introduced the -200 series on its multi-stop West African service linking Gatwick with Lagos via Lisbon, Las Palmas, Bathurst, Freetown and Accra.
THANK YOU!!! Unbelievable! Entebbe! Freetown!!! Somehow I thought that was Liberia and thought, WHAT?! :-) Then I remembered it's Sierra-Leone. This is absolutely fantastic historical review!

19 hours Gatwic-Santiago!? THAT is quick. Even today with a direct flight, I think it's about 13-14 hours (at least FRA-SCL), so considering all the additional landing, refuelling, 19 hours really don't look too long.

What were the airports like in Africa and South America? I saw some VHS (and even 8-mm) footage from the 70s and it's really not impressive - usually a white-ish building in what looks like a very lonely desert. Did you have your own staff there to refuel, service and check the planes or could you rely on local mechanics for that? I know Aeroflot carried their own ground crews to some African airports.

AND I'll continue to exploit your memory, if you don't mind. :-) I watched a documentary about a London airport (don't remember which one or what the film was about; I think it was a series about "Britain in the 50s" or a similar name). It talked about a flight to Tokyo, and it described the route as going from London to Anchorage and then proceeding to Tokyo. Did you ever fly that route? I'm just thinking about the navigation part of such a flight. Even today it's often impossible to correctly navigate that close to the North Pole, and I wondered how it was done in the past.

Actually navigation back in the day is what REALLY interests me. GPS didn't exist. Was LORAN available to pilots? I know ships used it but not sure if it could be used by planes. Or was it inertial? Or astro? How the heck did you find your way in the middle of the Atlantic/Pacific/Africa?

And another thing is flying over the Soviet Union. I know there were ten "corridors" the USSR opened for European airlines, mostly Germany for signing the contract to supply pipes and trucks to build gas pipelines and railroads. Were Brits included in that deal? Have you ever flown (or do you know anything about flying) over the USSR? If you have, what was the experience like? Especially concerning fuel temps and radio communications.

Let me know when you've had enough. :-) Seriously.

Edit: Please don't feel obliged to reply quickly (or at all) if you're otherwise engaged. I'm quite alright with waiting. Don't want you to regret replying to me. :-)

Last edited by ProPax; 2nd Jun 2019 at 22:23.
ProPax is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 14:03
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 82
Posts: 1,216
Received 22 Likes on 8 Posts
ProPax,

Here is a link to what it was like to fly VC10s in Africa. There were many interesting problems less likely to be encountered today.
Operating VC10s in Africa

Also a mine of information to be found on this link, and all true.
BETTER ON A CAMEL
Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 19:14
  #39 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bergerie1
ProPax,

Here is a link to what it was like to fly VC10s in Africa. There were many interesting problems less likely to be encountered today.
Operating VC10s in Africa

Also a mine of information to be found on this link, and all true.
BETTER ON A CAMEL
LOL I didn't realize Better On A Camel was a backronym for BOAC. :-))))

Thanks! Will definitely add both to my bookmarks.
ProPax is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 19:42
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Received 10 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally Posted by ProPax
LOL I didn't realize Better On A Camel was a backronym for BOAC. :-))))

Thanks! Will definitely add both to my bookmarks.

Well, that was one. BOAC could also be known as Boys Overseas After Crumpet !
RetiredBA/BY is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.