737-200 and 737-300 pilots
The Orion 737-300s which went on to Britannia after the merger were the early non-EFIS versions (and so was one of the Dan-Air 737-300s, G-SCUH) and also -3B1 power aircraft. It amazes me that they ever got to Tel Aviv back in the day, let alone made it back again non-stop.
They were eventually a separate type-rating (-200 and -300/-900) but nothing to stop you flying both - as previous posters have said, the sim checks alternated between the two and there were normally operator-imposed limits on the number of variants and whether you could fly both in the same duty day etc (didn't tend to be an issue on charter as two long sectors was your working day). Britannia got rid of the Orion aircraft pretty quickly, off to Morris Air then into Southwest - some in service until only a year or two ago, so over 30 years old.
They were eventually a separate type-rating (-200 and -300/-900) but nothing to stop you flying both - as previous posters have said, the sim checks alternated between the two and there were normally operator-imposed limits on the number of variants and whether you could fly both in the same duty day etc (didn't tend to be an issue on charter as two long sectors was your working day). Britannia got rid of the Orion aircraft pretty quickly, off to Morris Air then into Southwest - some in service until only a year or two ago, so over 30 years old.
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In Britannia, as others have pointed out, NO pilots flew both the -200 and the -300. All the -200s were to the same flight deck config as the very first one delivered in the late 60s, with no retro fits when more modern navigation instruments became available. This was to keep all the BAL 737s the same! As above, the Orion -300s were disposed of quite rapidly.
TUI, the former BAL, would now like to it's pilots to fly both the 787 and the 737 MAX.Now to me, that is not safe........
TUI, the former BAL, would now like to it's pilots to fly both the 787 and the 737 MAX.Now to me, that is not safe........
In Britannia, as others have pointed out, NO pilots flew both the -200 and the -300. All the -200s were to the same flight deck config as the very first one delivered in the late 60s, with no retro fits when more modern navigation instruments became available.
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Ah, the luxury of Omega. One night we were southbound from GLA to PMI and found ourselves on top of a company a/c out of MAN also to PMI. We could see them a couple of miles ahead & below. There we were, in the twilight evening, trudging towards BHD. Then, as if it was Christmas, ATC cleared us both direct BCN. Oops, we didn't have Omega. Our mate below accepted the clearance, and we hesitated a bit. Quick chat to our colleague to confirm they had a good idea how to get direct to BCN and we just followed. He also said his radar was a bit iffy, so if we could ping ahead for both of us he would 'pathfind' us to BCN.
Happy days.
regarding different variants: how things changed. In 90's, under JAR, a mate of mine with Air Belgium was swapping B733 for A320 in the same week.
Happy days.
regarding different variants: how things changed. In 90's, under JAR, a mate of mine with Air Belgium was swapping B733 for A320 in the same week.
re differences and training for differing 737 types
it is pretty well known & documented that the BMA 1988 Kegworth crash skipper transitioning from the newish 737-300 (still a fairly new type for BMA and for him since he had been on clockwork DC-9's for 10 years) to the latest brand spanking new 737-400, conclusions are that he had not been trained properly to identify that the new 734 glass cockpit engine vibration indicator readings (which were 2 tiny round dials with only white 0-5 idents and no yellow/red condition or range markers and was placed secondary panel quite low down on or to the side of the centre panel almost obscured by the gear handle or throttles - I cannot recall which sorry ) was in fact a primary instrument to adhere to.
His failure was not to notice and identify that the LH engine VIB IND was reading 9 (max) and the RH engine was reading 0 zero.
Had his training on this and other identifiers been more thorough, especially as he had over 20 years on analogue aircraft he would have there and then correctly identified the bad engine that had thrown a blade.
The subsequent crash was caused by inadvertent shutting down of the good RH engine and would not have occurred.
The pilots were criticised for reacting prematurely and contrary to their training. However, the AAIB report also raised questions and 31 recommendations including about the design and placing of the flight deck instruments, training, and other contributory factors such as fan blade fatigue due non-flight tested for the new higher powered engines and cabin crew interaction.
As an aside:
We know had the cabin crew contacted the cockpit crew to inform them the LH engine was actually on fire (having head Capt's PA that the RH engine being shut down) then again the crash would not have occurred, but at that time such communications was not part of a flight deck and cabin crew management requirement.
When BY/BAL/TOM based at LTN and AMM/FCA based at MAN merged the flight training and SOP's for the new big Company these were cherry picked from both airlines but I gather a lean towards the MAN operation and SOP's was taken, yet strangely the LTN operation was much larger and had had many more years experience since 1964 - albeit with 2 hull losses 1966 and 1999.
Today on here I read that TUI (was BY/BAL/TOM and merged later with AMM/FCA) now want to have their pilots fly both the 737 Max and the 787 as Smudge highlights above.
Two very different launch platforms usually operating very diffident mission patterns, although the 787 does op regular short haul in the summer to the Med.
I know that 757/767 was on the same ticket but those 2 a/c were designed from the outset to be dual rated as we know.
it is pretty well known & documented that the BMA 1988 Kegworth crash skipper transitioning from the newish 737-300 (still a fairly new type for BMA and for him since he had been on clockwork DC-9's for 10 years) to the latest brand spanking new 737-400, conclusions are that he had not been trained properly to identify that the new 734 glass cockpit engine vibration indicator readings (which were 2 tiny round dials with only white 0-5 idents and no yellow/red condition or range markers and was placed secondary panel quite low down on or to the side of the centre panel almost obscured by the gear handle or throttles - I cannot recall which sorry ) was in fact a primary instrument to adhere to.
His failure was not to notice and identify that the LH engine VIB IND was reading 9 (max) and the RH engine was reading 0 zero.
Had his training on this and other identifiers been more thorough, especially as he had over 20 years on analogue aircraft he would have there and then correctly identified the bad engine that had thrown a blade.
The subsequent crash was caused by inadvertent shutting down of the good RH engine and would not have occurred.
The pilots were criticised for reacting prematurely and contrary to their training. However, the AAIB report also raised questions and 31 recommendations including about the design and placing of the flight deck instruments, training, and other contributory factors such as fan blade fatigue due non-flight tested for the new higher powered engines and cabin crew interaction.
As an aside:
We know had the cabin crew contacted the cockpit crew to inform them the LH engine was actually on fire (having head Capt's PA that the RH engine being shut down) then again the crash would not have occurred, but at that time such communications was not part of a flight deck and cabin crew management requirement.
When BY/BAL/TOM based at LTN and AMM/FCA based at MAN merged the flight training and SOP's for the new big Company these were cherry picked from both airlines but I gather a lean towards the MAN operation and SOP's was taken, yet strangely the LTN operation was much larger and had had many more years experience since 1964 - albeit with 2 hull losses 1966 and 1999.
Today on here I read that TUI (was BY/BAL/TOM and merged later with AMM/FCA) now want to have their pilots fly both the 737 Max and the 787 as Smudge highlights above.
Two very different launch platforms usually operating very diffident mission patterns, although the 787 does op regular short haul in the summer to the Med.
I know that 757/767 was on the same ticket but those 2 a/c were designed from the outset to be dual rated as we know.
Last edited by rog747; 1st May 2018 at 17:59.
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I was with Lauda in mid 90's. They had B737 & B767. They were trying to get both on the type ticket. There was then serious discussion about B767 & B777 as a dual type. Neither happened, but Boeing were involved because if it had been granted then Boeing and customers would have been real winners.
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[QUOTE=kenparry;10135257]Not quite. The first addition to later buys was HF; then, rather later, PDCS and Omega.
Ah yes, but the PDCS was never "approved" to be used on it's own, we had to double check it with paper booklet inserts! The OMEGA worked well if there were no clouds around....as soon as you flew in cloud, it would go into DR and the weather radar at full tilt down was a better indicator of where you were going!!! That's how we used to find BARLU, find Cherbourg on the radar and head just to the NE!
I meant that the 1 DME that was on the LHS VOR was always the same even on mid 80s deliveries. The sheer luxury when BAL leased an ex DanAir machine with 2 DMEs, oh, the sheer joy!
Ah yes, but the PDCS was never "approved" to be used on it's own, we had to double check it with paper booklet inserts! The OMEGA worked well if there were no clouds around....as soon as you flew in cloud, it would go into DR and the weather radar at full tilt down was a better indicator of where you were going!!! That's how we used to find BARLU, find Cherbourg on the radar and head just to the NE!
I meant that the 1 DME that was on the LHS VOR was always the same even on mid 80s deliveries. The sheer luxury when BAL leased an ex DanAir machine with 2 DMEs, oh, the sheer joy!
If dual-fleeting, you are (in my humble view) better having two aircraft which are so distinctly different that you run a much lower risk of falling into the familiarity traps set by either. The flightdeck layouts either need to be bang identical or way removed from each other - subtle differences set a whole load of human factors traps to be uncovered at one's peril further down the line. Others may take a different view, but that's the opinion I've reached from seeing a couple of these experiments (both good and bad) over time.
It is surprising that Britannia basically down-spec'ed the later 737-200s to keep commonality with the older variants. I always remember one senior chap regaling me with the story that for the 10+ years where Britannia's fleet exclusively comprised 737-200s, the Flight Ops department had invented ten new ways (one a year) to fly the -200 to justify the department's continued scale and existence. The arrival of the 767s must have been a godsend in terms of putting a stop to the SOP "development" on the 737 fleet.
It is surprising that Britannia basically down-spec'ed the later 737-200s to keep commonality with the older variants. I always remember one senior chap regaling me with the story that for the 10+ years where Britannia's fleet exclusively comprised 737-200s, the Flight Ops department had invented ten new ways (one a year) to fly the -200 to justify the department's continued scale and existence. The arrival of the 767s must have been a godsend in terms of putting a stop to the SOP "development" on the 737 fleet.
Thread Starter
Slight thread drift coming up. Britannia used to operate a 737-222, registration G-AZNZ. I assume this aircraft was intended for United Airlines but Britannia acquired it in 1972. Anyone know why ? I would have thought United would need all the aircraft they could get in their busy domestic days, plus Britannia at the time were gradually building their own-specification fleet of -204s. Perhaps NZ was an early example of the Advanced variant and surplus to United's requirements. Anyway, I'm speculating wildly here and I really don't know !
G-AZNZ was not an Adv -200; in many respects it was similar to G-AVRL and RM, in being powered by JT8D-9 engines and with a max TOW of 49442 kg. Why United sold it, I don't know. It had a few oddities, notably the radar, which in the BAL fleet was a one-off. ISTR that uniquely United used 10cm weather radar, whereas everyone else used 3 cm. A puzzle - as the 10cm ATC area radars do not see the weather!
Slight thread drift coming up. Britannia used to operate a 737-222, registration G-AZNZ. I assume this aircraft was intended for United Airlines but Britannia acquired it in 1972. Anyone know why ? I would have thought United would need all the aircraft they could get in their busy domestic days, plus Britannia at the time were gradually building their own-specification fleet of -204s. Perhaps NZ was an early example of the Advanced variant and surplus to United's requirements. Anyway, I'm speculating wildly here and I really don't know !
Good Q MC
I always wondered too why ZNZ was bought second hand from UAL wherein all of BY's 737-204's were new build for the company from G-AVRL onwards in 1968
maybe UAL were surplus at the time (arab fuel prices?) or BY saw a deal with them - someone here will know for sure
ZNZ was def not an ADV 732 - she was a single galley same as the 204 early build ones - split galleys came along later in the 70's - different batch
she was delivered in the new livery first seen on the 707's (VRL-O XNA-C and WSY were all delivered in the old Britannia white livery)
Thread Starter
I wouldn't mind betting I've never seen NZ (at least not at LBA). As I now know thanks to rog, it wasn't an Advanced so would have struggled with the old 5400 feet runway, or demolished the blast fence at the end. Britannia had a few other oddballs in their 732 fleet, for example, BGNW (219 Advanced), OSLA and BOSL (2U4 Advanced) and BJXJ (another 219 Advanced, came from Dan-Air). By the time the latter came along, 732 production was about done and the 767 was nicely established.
Where is WHBM ? We need answers !
kenparry. I didn't see your post earlier on. I wonder if Boeing got involved and offered NZ to Britannia at an attractive price, radar variances and all ? Britannia kept NZ for a number of years along with the other oddballs I've mentioned so something must have been right. Thanks also for the info about the OSL aircraft.
Where is WHBM ? We need answers !
kenparry. I didn't see your post earlier on. I wonder if Boeing got involved and offered NZ to Britannia at an attractive price, radar variances and all ? Britannia kept NZ for a number of years along with the other oddballs I've mentioned so something must have been right. Thanks also for the info about the OSL aircraft.
Last edited by Mooncrest; 4th May 2018 at 21:01.
OSLA & BOSL were bought by Owners' Services Ltd (hence the reg letters), were to the same technical spec as the contemporary -204, and were operated by BAL on about a 5-year contract. OSL had previously been a major flight-only customer.
A real oddball was A40-BG, a dry lease from GulfAir in 1979-80, which had a lot of cockpit differences.
A real oddball was A40-BG, a dry lease from GulfAir in 1979-80, which had a lot of cockpit differences.
James Villas were on OSL's atol
the pair were seen on normal Britannia ops as well as their own charter series - Sir Geoffrey de Havilland and Sir Frank Whittle were the names
one ended up with BA and GB as G-IBTZ and the other with DA as G-ILFC
OSL was formed in 1967 and in 1987 became part of the Horizon group – acquired the following year by Thomson.
The last OSL brochure was issued for summer 1993 but Thomson regenerated the brand in 2000
update on g-aznz
I wouldn't mind betting I've never seen NZ (at least not at LBA). As I now know thanks to rog, it wasn't an Advanced so would have struggled with the old 5400 feet runway, or demolished the blast fence at the end. Britannia had a few other oddballs in their 732 fleet, for example, BGNW (219 Advanced), OSLA and BOSL (2U4 Advanced) and BJXJ (another 219 Advanced, came from Dan-Air). By the time the latter came along, 732 production was about done and the 767 was nicely established.
Where is WHBM ? We need answers !
kenparry. I didn't see your post earlier on. I wonder if Boeing got involved and offered NZ to Britannia at an attractive price, radar variances and all ? Britannia kept NZ for a number of years along with the other oddballs I've mentioned so something must have been right. Thanks also for the info about the OSL aircraft.
Where is WHBM ? We need answers !
kenparry. I didn't see your post earlier on. I wonder if Boeing got involved and offered NZ to Britannia at an attractive price, radar variances and all ? Britannia kept NZ for a number of years along with the other oddballs I've mentioned so something must have been right. Thanks also for the info about the OSL aircraft.
In answer to the original question, Britannia wanted an aircraft in hurry but I don't know why United were selling. I do remember having to re work the audio selector panel extensively to give similar functionality
Ken , Rat , 'n Smudge I too remember that the Omega was not so good on North / South legs , just where it was most needed . And the Barlu wx radar trick . Mind you when got on 732s it was heaven . With DME , NDB , Radar , and HF ; thought we could go anywhere . Radar down to min range , leave the Bilbao breakwater just on the right side ; lined you up nicely on the c/l even if ignoring the NDB .
Iceland on a UK 3 engine a/c , long range nav aid was Doppler and no HF . Leave Stornoway on hdg and time , just one turn point 100nm or so off the Faroes [ they had no radar or DME ] , left hand down a bit until wx radar picked up shape of Iceland , and NDB kicked in . Mind you used same technique on a '76 into Grand Cayman .
rgds condor .
Iceland on a UK 3 engine a/c , long range nav aid was Doppler and no HF . Leave Stornoway on hdg and time , just one turn point 100nm or so off the Faroes [ they had no radar or DME ] , left hand down a bit until wx radar picked up shape of Iceland , and NDB kicked in . Mind you used same technique on a '76 into Grand Cayman .
rgds condor .
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737-200 Pilot
Dear All,
we are currently looking for a pilot and FO to fly our N registered 737-200, we are planning to start an operations in Africa, if any one interested or know someone who is please let me know.
Best Regards.
Ali
we are currently looking for a pilot and FO to fly our N registered 737-200, we are planning to start an operations in Africa, if any one interested or know someone who is please let me know.
Best Regards.
Ali
Mooncrest, although most of the 737-200 ops on the old runway at LBA were the 737-204ADVs, the early aircraft including G-AVRN (Captain James Cook, which went on for years longer than the other non-ADV aircraft) and G-AZNZ (Henry Hudson, if my memory serves me rightly) did pay occasional visits, sometimes on the trooping charters to Gutersloh and I'm sure on some of the shorter routes like Reus and Gerona on W patterns. G-BGNW (George Stephenson) was the ex ANZ aircraft as noted above, but appeared along with any of the others at random - very sadly, I can probably reel off the whole list including most of the aircraft names, which really should be a worry worthy of a psychiatric assessment all in itself nowadays. The only Britannia aircraft that I don't think went through Leeds were the OSL pair (BOSL and OSLA) and the Quebecair ones. The summer leases from Pluna Uruguay (G-BNIA and G-BONM) did put in occasional appearances albeit very rare, still in their half-Pluna colours.
Probably 15 years after last flying on a non-ADV -200, I flew on a freighter which was nearly a decade older than me - must have been around 1999 - and I'd forgotten the utter racket on landing with the reverse thrust bucket doors. I don't know whether there was any technical difference but the earlier aircraft always seemed to shake, rattle and roll noticeably more at that point than the later models. Was on the "side saddle" jumpseat right behind the Captain on that 737-200 freighter and I can't recall ever having been as uncomfortable on an aircraft or being thrown against my shoulder harness like that before or since!
Probably 15 years after last flying on a non-ADV -200, I flew on a freighter which was nearly a decade older than me - must have been around 1999 - and I'd forgotten the utter racket on landing with the reverse thrust bucket doors. I don't know whether there was any technical difference but the earlier aircraft always seemed to shake, rattle and roll noticeably more at that point than the later models. Was on the "side saddle" jumpseat right behind the Captain on that 737-200 freighter and I can't recall ever having been as uncomfortable on an aircraft or being thrown against my shoulder harness like that before or since!
Thread Starter
Flight rider. I've just seen your reply from seven months ago ! I can confirm that both BOSL and OSLA have visited LBA, as well as BNIA. I certainly remember seeing them, but my memory of the early-build 204s coming through LBA is hazy at best !