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AF66 CDG-LAX diverts - uncontained engine failure over Atlantic

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AF66 CDG-LAX diverts - uncontained engine failure over Atlantic

Old 4th Oct 2017, 13:10
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
If, as is suggested, that the fan 'broke up',
I don't think the fan broke up e.g. there's no evidence that any part of the fan was ingested; in my view the hub/shaft/bearing gave up resulting in the fan cutting up the engine cover/cowel before the complete fan assembly separated under or over the wing (thank goodness not through the wing).
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Old 4th Oct 2017, 14:43
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stumpy Grinder View Post
during and after a FBO event.
One fan blade or the entire fan?
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Old 4th Oct 2017, 14:55
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with musicrab, I don't think the fan broke up. Hopefully the bearing remnants should still be there. The bearing is a high speed thrust bearing with a split inner ring race. The inner race is attached to the very rear end of the fan stub shaft and rotates with fan. The outer race is attached to the cylindrical cone and doesn't rotate. The split inner ring allows for some axial movement of the fan stub shaft forward or aft which occurs during acceleration or deceleration and at the same time, avoids putting undue pressure on the ballbearings as the overall bearing distorts slightly. If the bearing fails, the precise centering of the shaft connected to the fan is lost and IMHO, from there on all hell can break loose which appears to be what happened. Examination of the LPT module will give additional failure information.
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Old 4th Oct 2017, 22:47
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EEngr View Post
One fan blade or the entire fan?

1 blade, if the whole fan comes off then the imbalance (and hence vibration) is far less so 1 FBO is worst case in terms of dynamic vibration.


I'm seeing reports from passengers of high vibration, therefore it was possibly a FBO event that was contained (blade in the bypass duct) but some secondary and perhaps further failures leading to fan loss but it would have had to have been a very rapid failure sequence as the fan slows and hence has reduced loading.


That blade in the duct also appears to still have it's root; It could be a red herring, defo not a black Griffon........


This is indeed a curious one.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 02:34
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stumpy Grinder View Post
That blade in the duct also appears to still have it's root; It could be a red herring, defo not a black Griffon........
Well, once the front end departs, the blade would be free to slide out backward, especially if it got a bit jammed in the lining (or what was left of it)? and then the wind could have lodged it where it got stuck.

Another option: the fan ring did split, and it would split at the weakest points, aka where slots for the blades are, freeing the blades in those slots with their roots intact. This feels more plausible than a blade sliding out, but would the ring have split?
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 08:03
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Any "official" comments seen by anyone on this event yet?
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 08:23
  #267 (permalink)  
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ATC transcript (Gander Center/ AFR066)

There are various archives files on LiveATC where you can hear the R/T between AF66 and GANDER Center or Goose.
LATC is archiving its audio feeds every 30 minutes for each recorded station. I believe that each uploader has his own receptor hence the good or poor reception is depending of their position.

The N°4 engine shutdown happened over Greenland at 1351Z. At that time one can observe that AF66 starts its security descent.

On LiveATC I've found the following feeds starting at 1430z :
-CYYT GND/TWR/Gander Center
-CYYR Gander Center

At that time AF66 is at FL270

The R/T between AFR66 and Gander is starting at + 18'18" (14.48'18"z) on both feeds.
A word of caution:
Both feeds are very likely scanners that grab pre-programmed frequencies. Scanner(s) stops on an active frequency( R/T) and, when transmission is ended on this frequency then jumps to another preselected freq if it becomes active etc... therefore transmissions with AFR66 are not entirely covered if another frequency become active in between. Frustrating sometimes...
Also : it seems that exists some kind of overlapping between each 30 minutes feeds therefore times indicated may be wrong.

This is my transcript from both feeds. CYYt appeared to be less cut by other transmissions. I could get almost the entire transmission using both CYYR and CYYT feeds.
+18'18"
AFR66 : GANDER Control this is AIRFRANCE 066 MAYDAY did you copy?
G : AIR FRANCE 066 HEAVY GANDER CENTER good day I read you loud and clear go ahead

AF : AIR FRANCE 066 MAYDAY FL 270 on course YYR request priority landing engine number four out and we are estimating the airfield at 1536.
G: OK I check the engine number 4 and you can expect priority landing and I check your estimate of 1536.
AF: [garbled]... and if possible to have the best runway for arrival?
G : AFR066 you can expect the RNAV runway 26 that will be straight in you can proceed direct BIVMI that's Bravo India Victor Mike India
AF : repeat the direct AIR FRANCE 066 MAYDAY?
G : that's : bravo india victor mike india it will be the initial fix for the RNAV 26
AF: OK from position direct to BIVMI for RNAV 26 at Goose and request priority when arrival
G: AFR066 even expect the fire services on the ground and can you confirm the fire is out on engine number 4?
AF : yes sir fire is out on engine number 4 but we have small/some? Damage on slat and the right wing
G : AFR066 say again your last?
AF :we have little damage on the slat on engine number 4 and we have big damage engine number 4
G : AFR066 I check your remark.

At +22'40" Gander request AFR66 to squawk 6050 and confirms "radar identified at FL270" at +23'48"

-CYYT1500Z

At +0252 AFR066 request descent and is cleared 14000 Alt. setting 30.04 at Goose.
AFR66 is requested to contact Goose on 119.5 at +03'34"

The other feeds are CYYR DEL/GND/TWR/APP from 1500z to 1600z.
You can check further CYYR feeds until landing and after. Sorry but the zip file won't upload...
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 09:46
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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parts of engine found in greenland

In a statement in french on their website , BEA announces that some parts of engine have been detected in a desert area in Greenland 150 kms southeast of Paamiut by an helicopter sent by danish authorities. BEA and danish inquirers will organise parts recovery.

(sorry server denies to post URLs, this is on frontpage).

Last edited by romiglups; 5th Oct 2017 at 10:00.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 10:00
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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Romiglups

Thanks for that, hopefully this link to the BEA statement will work:

https://www.bea.aero/index.php?id=25...76709dddbb6b8f
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 10:12
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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That is, according to translate.google.co.uk

<
The use of the data contained in the parameter recorder (FDR) was used to determine the place where the damage occurred during the cruise to the Airbus A380 engine number 4 and to delimit a search area for the detached.

It is a desert area, covered with ice, located about 150 kilometers south-east of the town of Paamiut, located on the west coast.

At the request of the Danish Accident Investigation Office, a helicopter from the Danish airline Air Greenland flew yesterday and spotted parts from the engine.

The BEA is in contact with its Danish counterpart to organize the recovery of these elements.

Work on the analysis of the data contained in the flight recorders will continue at the BEA laboratory. The engine computers will also be analyzed at the manufacturer of these equipment in the United States.

The BEA investigators who traveled to Goose Bay and Ottawa will return to France on Thursday, October 5th.
>
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 10:20
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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For the avoidance of any s it might be worth pointing out the probably obvious fact that the best translation for
désertique
in the context of this BEA report is "wilderness", "deserted", or similar......
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 11:24
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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Though dated 3rd October, I haven't seen this posted here yet:

"Following the accident to the Airbus A380, registered F-HPJE, during cruise over Greenland, the Danish Accident Investigation Board (AIB DK) have delegated to the BEA the opening and conduction of the safety investigation. The BEA represents France, State of the Operator, State of Registry and State of Design. Investigators from AIB DK, representing Greenland and Denmark, State of Occurrence, from NTSB, representing the United States of America, State of Engine Manufacturers, and TSB, representing Canada, State where the flight crew diverted, are taking part in this safety investigation.

Four BEA investigators travelled to Goose Bay on Sunday 1st October, accompanied by technical advisors from Airbus and Air France. NTSB investigators, accompanied by technical advisors from engine manufacturers General Electric and Pratt & Whitney, as well as TSB investigators, also travelled to the site.

A fifth BEA investigator travelled to Ottawa to attend the first read-out of the Flight Recorder data. This read-out enabled the investigators to determine at which point of the flight the failure occured.

The Airbus A380-800, operated by Air France, was performing the flight from Paris (France) to Los Angeles (United States of America) under the callsign AF066. It had taken off from Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport on Saturday 30th September 2017 around 09 h30 (UTC), with 497 passengers and 24 crew members on board. Following a failure on the number 4 engine while the plane was overflying Greenland, the flight crew diverted to Goose Bay Airport (Canada), where they landed at 15 h 42 (UTC) without any further incident.

Damage to the aircraft seems to be confined to the number 4 engine and its immediate surroundings. A visual check of the engine has shown that the fan, first rotating part at the front of the engine, has separated in flight, taking with it the whole air inlet cowl."

Information du 3 octobre 2017
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 13:12
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Debris have been located by an Air Greenland helicopter, 150 km south east of Paamiut on the west coast.

Do not have the british link of french BEA bulletin, but here is the essential.

https://www.bea.aero/index.php?id=25...76709dddbb6b8f


Information du 5 octobre 2017
L’exploitation des données contenues dans l’enregistreur de paramètres (FDR) a permis de déterminer le lieu où l’avarie est survenue en croisière au moteur numéro 4 de l’Airbus A380 et de délimiter une zone de recherche des éléments qui se sont détachés.
Il s’agit d’une zone désertique, couverte de glace, localisée à environ 150 kilomètres au sud-est de la ville de Paamiut, située sur la côte ouest.
À la demande du bureau danois d’enquêtes sur les accidents, un hélicoptère de la compagnie danoise Air Greenland a survolé hier cette zone et a repéré des pièces provenant du moteur.
Le BEA est en relation avec son homologue danois pour organiser la récupération de ces éléments.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 13:30
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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I am definitely not an engineer, but I am a great admirer and respecter of the magnificent human achievement the GP7200 engine represents. That it, and it’s various brothers and sisters, can safely operate and perform as routinely and reliably as they do has wrought change and improvement to the world like no other invention... except the wheel and perhaps the taming of electricity itself.
At heroic effort and cost, the blending of concept and human knowledge, then actually producing a device which, with about 39 percent efficiency, can produce some 70,000 useable hp, — then coupling it up with a few others like it to go merrily flying across the oceans of the world (along with 500 or so other people) has to rank as one of the major wonders.
I believe the dynamic of huge, pure power, such as presented to the N1 fan assembly, itself shrunk to the minimum size possible to be complementary to the rest of the 6 or 7 ton engine, transports engineering to the very edge of what is possible.
That there has now been a mysterious and violent event occur at the dynamic point where, so to speak, the “rubber meets the road” it’s fair warning by the grace of God that something very major may be wrong. In aviation we often don’t get a warning something is amiss...but here we have, and all survived to tell about it. Recall the first (AA) DC-10 aft cargo door related decompression, at what, FL 14? The collapsing aft cabin floor tensioning control cables? The successful emer landing? The FAA caving then on an emer AD to ground the type? Just issue a service bulletin? Then later the Turkish AL decompression and loss (Orly?) with 346 on-board?!! We’ve had our warning. Methinks we need to bite the bullet. Stop the A380 for a bit and take a look.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 15:54
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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radken,

No reason to ground the A380, it's not the aircraft it's the engine - and - different engine, different problem. The QANTAS incident was with a Rolls Royce engine, this one is a GP7200. The RR failure was a turbine disk, this one looks like an LP shaft failure.

Last edited by Bergerie1; 5th Oct 2017 at 17:52.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 16:50
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed re désertique. It seems to imply reassurance and relief that the route had been a wise choice, and the bits thankfully fell over an area devoid of any habitation.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 19:24
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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What failed first?

We know one blade detached from the hub - perhaps more. The rotational forces may have overloaded the flange.

Or the flange failure resulted in blades rubbing the containment ring and initiating one or more hub attachment failures.

The possibilities range from just one blade coming out of the hub to all of them.

BEA has retrieved the engine computers. Hopefully the event remains on memory.

The cutaways we have seen show adjacent roller and thrust bearings just behind the flange. We don't yet know their status.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 21:09
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a map of the flight path from FlightAware and a 150 kilometer arc from the Paamuit airport. A few minutes later and engine pieces and parts might not have been so quickly found.

A larger size here: https://i.imgur.com/VlGN4rb.png

Last edited by sardak; 6th Oct 2017 at 16:30. Reason: Changed link to larger image.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 18:34
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 18:54
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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