jetairways flight 9w118 contact lost over Germany
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Not only shooting down but bringing down by any means...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.5a20c4d4acbd
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.5a20c4d4acbd
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Quote:
Assuming a positive identification of the situation can we seriously envision shooting down a fully loaded passenger aircraft over continental Europe?
In extremis and for the sake of public consumption I'd suggest the answer has to be yes...
No, the answer HAS to be NO! ... at least in Germany (and we´re talking about Germany) the constitutional court has administered that it is against human dignity, to count up the lives of those on board against those of a potentially endangered public (no matter what the ratio of numbers is).
Assuming a positive identification of the situation can we seriously envision shooting down a fully loaded passenger aircraft over continental Europe?
In extremis and for the sake of public consumption I'd suggest the answer has to be yes...
No, the answer HAS to be NO! ... at least in Germany (and we´re talking about Germany) the constitutional court has administered that it is against human dignity, to count up the lives of those on board against those of a potentially endangered public (no matter what the ratio of numbers is).
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If that's the case then why launch interception at all?, it's nothing more than a PR exercise.
I suspect if it came to a decision of saving lives by sacrificing a few it would be done and the legal aspects sorted out later.
p.s. having thought about that, there are other advantages than just PR- eyes on scene could aid adding information available on the incident or an investigation later. As demonstrated with the Helios accident.
I suspect if it came to a decision of saving lives by sacrificing a few it would be done and the legal aspects sorted out later.
p.s. having thought about that, there are other advantages than just PR- eyes on scene could aid adding information available on the incident or an investigation later. As demonstrated with the Helios accident.
Last edited by hoss183; 20th Feb 2017 at 11:46.
Well I guess there is always the highly unlikely case of the technical issue to which assistance could be rendered but I tend to agree that it is mostly, if not exclusively, a PR move... A good practical exercise for the people involved I'd say.
My point was more about the geography... Except for France, Spain, Germany and maybe Italy the timing from contact lost, intercept and action is just on the edge of the impossible. Case in point a few years ago (Feb 2014) the Swiss air force was scolded for not being able to intercept an Ethiopian Airlines aircraft that was hijacked by an apparently mentally unstable pilot (!) to Geneva. Problem is that the plane was only for a few minutes in Swiss airspace, escorted initially by Italian then French fighters. What was the chain of command in this case ?!
As for the WaPo article... well, as many things about 9/11... but not the place to discuss (if at all possible).
My point was more about the geography... Except for France, Spain, Germany and maybe Italy the timing from contact lost, intercept and action is just on the edge of the impossible. Case in point a few years ago (Feb 2014) the Swiss air force was scolded for not being able to intercept an Ethiopian Airlines aircraft that was hijacked by an apparently mentally unstable pilot (!) to Geneva. Problem is that the plane was only for a few minutes in Swiss airspace, escorted initially by Italian then French fighters. What was the chain of command in this case ?!
As for the WaPo article... well, as many things about 9/11... but not the place to discuss (if at all possible).
Quote:
Assuming a positive identification of the situation can we seriously envision shooting down a fully loaded passenger aircraft over continental Europe?
In extremis and for the sake of public consumption I'd suggest the answer has to be yes...
No, the answer HAS to be NO! ... at least in Germany (and we´re talking about Germany) the constitutional court has administered that it is against human dignity, to count up the lives of those on board against those of a potentially endangered public (no matter what the ratio of numbers is).
Assuming a positive identification of the situation can we seriously envision shooting down a fully loaded passenger aircraft over continental Europe?
In extremis and for the sake of public consumption I'd suggest the answer has to be yes...
No, the answer HAS to be NO! ... at least in Germany (and we´re talking about Germany) the constitutional court has administered that it is against human dignity, to count up the lives of those on board against those of a potentially endangered public (no matter what the ratio of numbers is).
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The statement is correct, the Bundesverfassungsgericht did make such a ruling.
It's interesting to consider where exactly the line could be drawn though...
Example: A lone gunman grabs an innocent hostage and holds them in front of himself while threatening to shoot other nearby innocents. Can his hostage be legitimately killed in order to protect other potential victims?
What if the gunman actually shoots and kills other innocents from this position?
What if his hostage is also carrying a baby?
Presumably there would need to be a formula considering the ratio of potential life lost if no action is taken to the number of innocents that will certainly be killed in the course of taking action. Does motive have any bearing? How can the intentions of the attacker(s) be determined and what is the test for this? Are the lives of innocents worth less or entitled to differing levels of protection if they cannot reasonably be expected to survive longer than a certain amount of time? How much time?
It's interesting to consider where exactly the line could be drawn though...
Example: A lone gunman grabs an innocent hostage and holds them in front of himself while threatening to shoot other nearby innocents. Can his hostage be legitimately killed in order to protect other potential victims?
What if the gunman actually shoots and kills other innocents from this position?
What if his hostage is also carrying a baby?
Presumably there would need to be a formula considering the ratio of potential life lost if no action is taken to the number of innocents that will certainly be killed in the course of taking action. Does motive have any bearing? How can the intentions of the attacker(s) be determined and what is the test for this? Are the lives of innocents worth less or entitled to differing levels of protection if they cannot reasonably be expected to survive longer than a certain amount of time? How much time?
Last edited by Mr Magnetic; 21st Feb 2017 at 07:48. Reason: Spelling...
The airspace over Germany has always seemed to me the most likely place to have a PLOC. There are so many different frequencies for Rhein Radar and you are transferring almost every 2 minutes. Very easy to miss a change then lose the controller.
Plenty of European carriers have had issues over Germany too.
Plenty of European carriers have had issues over Germany too.
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Also goes the other way and I'd bet that Control tried to call them up multiple times on 121.5 with no response before considering to scramble the QRA jets. So my bet is that they did not have a radio set for 121.5, the volume was to low or they just didn't listen for the calls.
Furthermore, if they have been in german airspace before they should have wondered why they did not get handed over to the next frequency for such a long time, and maybe try to establish comms with privius agency, try on 121.5 or look it up in their flight pubs.
As I have found myself sitting in the cockpit multiple times during QRA scrambles towards "non-talkers", I seriously consider this pure airmanship when a crew of two pilots flying straight and level on full automatics at cruise altitude, are able to fly halfway across Europe without noticing that they should be talking to somebody.
Regarding the ethical dilemma of 1 aircraft full of pax VS many more people on the ground, I fully respect the germans with that regard. Main thing is that they have given it some thought before a potential incident takes place and that they have made the decision beforehand. Once the event is underway there won't be enough time to have this kind of debate.
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz31/pi...jpg?1436189258
I also bet that all other NATO contries have procedures in place for such a case, and that if a decision is made to bring down a civilian aircraft, this decision will not be a decision the pilot in the interceptor will have to make. This decision will be made in the highest leadership level.
Furthermore, if they have been in german airspace before they should have wondered why they did not get handed over to the next frequency for such a long time, and maybe try to establish comms with privius agency, try on 121.5 or look it up in their flight pubs.
As I have found myself sitting in the cockpit multiple times during QRA scrambles towards "non-talkers", I seriously consider this pure airmanship when a crew of two pilots flying straight and level on full automatics at cruise altitude, are able to fly halfway across Europe without noticing that they should be talking to somebody.
Regarding the ethical dilemma of 1 aircraft full of pax VS many more people on the ground, I fully respect the germans with that regard. Main thing is that they have given it some thought before a potential incident takes place and that they have made the decision beforehand. Once the event is underway there won't be enough time to have this kind of debate.
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz31/pi...jpg?1436189258
I also bet that all other NATO contries have procedures in place for such a case, and that if a decision is made to bring down a civilian aircraft, this decision will not be a decision the pilot in the interceptor will have to make. This decision will be made in the highest leadership level.
Last edited by F-16GUY; 20th Feb 2017 at 16:08.
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In casoes of pilot incapacitation there have been cases where the military have followed a flight until it has crashed
it's useful in that
a) it confrims that no-one was alive/awake in the cockpit,
b) coroners and insurance companies have a reliable witness to the unfortunate deaths - this can seriously speed up the paperwork for the bereaved in some jurisdictions
it's useful in that
a) it confrims that no-one was alive/awake in the cockpit,
b) coroners and insurance companies have a reliable witness to the unfortunate deaths - this can seriously speed up the paperwork for the bereaved in some jurisdictions
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Happened hundred of times for a number of different reasons in my 40 plus years in ATC. Of course after 911 it needed to be handled differently, just in case.
As for releasing it to the press (did they though - or just put it on social media?), I think the intention was more one of interesting footage as opposed to wanting to be unkind to the JAI crew.
As for releasing it to the press (did they though - or just put it on social media?), I think the intention was more one of interesting footage as opposed to wanting to be unkind to the JAI crew.
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NoRad has happened for years. Granted but modern aircraft produce complacency & dare I say it boredom. They are so good at managing themselves you even have the time to video someone else's troubles. It would have been classic if the (BA) crew had gone NoRad too being distracted.
Generalising crew should obviously monitor active & guard freq but also be aware of their position & where rt handover should occure.
Learnt that once coming up France rt chat didn't stop but when prompted found no one receiving. Especially in recent times their is no excuse for NoRad.
Generalising crew should obviously monitor active & guard freq but also be aware of their position & where rt handover should occure.
Learnt that once coming up France rt chat didn't stop but when prompted found no one receiving. Especially in recent times their is no excuse for NoRad.
F-16guy, thanks for the insights on interception.
The drawing you linked in #30 is of course an illustration of the famous trolley problem, which has many variants; I don't know whether the ethicists have nailed down the answer(s). In any case, as you say, governments have likely thought about the issue and come to conclusions and established procedures; if they haven't by now, they're negligent. But I wonder if there may be grey areas where neighboring governments have come to different conclusions. The Germans say, no shooting down, which like you I respect; the US apparently says, down the hijacked aircraft by any means. Each country presumably has its own policy somewhere in the spectrum between the German line and the US line. What happens when the aircraft is crossing borders between territories with different policies?
The drawing you linked in #30 is of course an illustration of the famous trolley problem, which has many variants; I don't know whether the ethicists have nailed down the answer(s). In any case, as you say, governments have likely thought about the issue and come to conclusions and established procedures; if they haven't by now, they're negligent. But I wonder if there may be grey areas where neighboring governments have come to different conclusions. The Germans say, no shooting down, which like you I respect; the US apparently says, down the hijacked aircraft by any means. Each country presumably has its own policy somewhere in the spectrum between the German line and the US line. What happens when the aircraft is crossing borders between territories with different policies?
Last edited by OldLurker; 20th Feb 2017 at 17:51. Reason: typo
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I've been retired a couple of years now but last time I flew the international boundaries were not a feature on the map display.
Would it not help to have them clearly displayed?
PS In the olden days with steam driven equipment and rad nav charts (you know those paper things you had to fold and refer to for things like frequencies, idents, tracks etc) pilots were much more aware of the FIR boundaries.
Would it not help to have them clearly displayed?
PS In the olden days with steam driven equipment and rad nav charts (you know those paper things you had to fold and refer to for things like frequencies, idents, tracks etc) pilots were much more aware of the FIR boundaries.
The airspace over Germany has always seemed to me the most likely place to have a PLOC. There are so many different frequencies for Rhein Radar and you are transferring almost every 2 minutes. Very easy to miss a change then lose the controller.
Plenty of European carriers have had issues over Germany too.
Plenty of European carriers have had issues over Germany too.
Thought: 'That's odd shouldn't we have been given a frequency change?' and then it takes a little time to establish comms with the next sector controller.
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It beggars my mind that civil aviation radios don't monitor guard channel regardless of what their working frequency is. USAF radios have had this feature for fifty years or more.
They also have a switch to silence the monitor's output because not everyone has perfect comm discipline.
They also have a switch to silence the monitor's output because not everyone has perfect comm discipline.
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Northwest airbus flight 188, in 2009, enroute from San Diego to Minneapolis, the pilot was unresponsive to ATC for 90 minutes! they were about to scramble the fighter jets when the flight attendant asked the captain "What time were we supposed to be landing in Minneapolis?"