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SWISS LX40 [ZRH-LAX] diversion to Iqaluit

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SWISS LX40 [ZRH-LAX] diversion to Iqaluit

Old 2nd Feb 2017, 20:23
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but that sure sounds like a case where avionics decide that keeping that engine running is a major threat and shut it down without human intervention. Looking forward to reading input from people who know whether that's even possible...
No idea about the type/engine in question here, but for example on a twin you'd need to be darned sure your automation ensured you didn't shut down a sick but running engine/thrust producing engine (e.g. due to low or zero oil pressure) without checking the state of the other engine first.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 20:25
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I'm baffled anyone would read anything into a news article, e.g. 'automatic shutdown'. It's anyones guess where 'the news' get their facts from, but anyone who has inside knowledge on anything they report on, will tell you that most of the time they get it dead wrong.

Now, to my knowledge there is no such thing as 'automatic shut-down' of main engines on any airliner. For the APU, yes, but for the big noisy things hanging off the wings, there are only 3 ways of getting them to shut down: Run out of fuel, suffer catastrophic failure or command by the crew.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 20:28
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I'm sure the An124 boys are readying for a nice charter there with an replacement engine
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 20:32
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Originally Posted by Herod
I've been out of the loop for a while, but do these modern wonder-jets have engines that shut-down automatically? Sounds scary to me; I'm an old Luddite who would like to be able to make my own decision about engines.
There is only one scenario where we let the FADEC unilaterally shutdown the engine on Boeing aircraft: Uncontrollable High Thrust (UHT) while on the ground (TCMA). It's only active while on the ground (both radio altimeter and weight on wheels), if an engine goes to (or remains at) high power with the throttle at idle, the FADEC will shut it down.
This was done to address a specific FAA concern that UHT on the ground was catastrophic.
In flight, the FADEC will always do it's best to keep the thing running.

Edit: On further reflection, there is another scenario - overspeed (i.e. rotor speed over redline) - if the high rotor speed exceeds redline by a preset value, a separate circuit in the engine control will cut the fuel to protect the structural integrity of the engine. However this isn't applicable to the GE90 on the 777-300ER (it has a mechanical fly-ball governor that will hold N2 at redline).

Last edited by tdracer; 2nd Feb 2017 at 20:46.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 20:37
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In flight, the FADEC will always do it's best to keep the thing running.
Sounds like a good idea to me....
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 21:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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AFAIK all that "automatic shut-off" stuff is after a media report/article.
Did any authorized technical statement (Swiss, Boeing) give any clue/info about this subject?
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 21:32
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Originally Posted by guadaMB
AFAIK all that "automatic shut-off" stuff is after a media report/article
It comes from a statement from the airline.

Did any authorized technical statement (Swiss, Boeing) give any clue/info about this subject?
See above (and post #1).
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 21:36
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Delta recently had a 767 divert to Cold Bay Alaska. A new engine was flown in by C130. The bigger problem they had was Cold Bay did not have enough deice capability for a 767. They had to hire the big Russian airlifter to fly two deice trucks and a tanker in for the deice. Only other option was wait for spring!
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 22:19
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Short trip report from somebody onboard:
trip report
Obviously very well handled by the crew & SWISS.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 22:33
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Often, people (including aviation professionals) will classify any uncommanded shutdown as an "automatic" shutdown - that only really means that the engine quit without any crew input.
Educated guess, based on what I know about the GE90, is that it was a gearbox issue. Something in the gearbox fails, drive is lost to the fuel pump, no fuel pump means no fuel and the engine "automatically" shuts down...
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 22:57
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Presumably RR and its shareholders will be relieved that it wasn't a Trent that quit this time. They've had enough problems (non-mechanical) this year already.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 23:36
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer
Often, people (including aviation professionals) will classify any uncommanded shutdown as an "automatic" shutdown - that only really means that the engine quit without any crew input.
Educated guess, based on what I know about the GE90, is that it was a gearbox issue. Something in the gearbox fails, drive is lost to the fuel pump, no fuel pump means no fuel and the engine "automatically" shuts down...
I had a tower shaft failure on a GE. With no drive to the accessory section engine quits asap!
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 23:53
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I thought so too. Imagine changing engines in those conditions! Wonder if Air Canada has any support there.
Such aircraft could be retrieved and brought to another airport by company's test pilot. Yes, they can obtain a ferry permit and fly it out on a single engine (sufficiently empty of course). It is up to the airline how they want to handle it. I know United had test pilots for jobs like that - they would fly a crippled airliner sometimes across the globe.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 00:14
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by porterhouse
Such aircraft could be retrieved and brought to another airport by company's test pilot. Yes, they can obtain a ferry permit and fly it out on a single engine (sufficiently empty of course). It is up to the airline how they want to handle it. I know United had test pilots for jobs like that - they would fly a crippled airliner sometimes across the globe.
Single engine ferry of an ETOPS twin? That's a new one on me. Can you cite an example of when this was done?
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 00:34
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I'm with Airbubba. There is an approved procedure to do engine out, non-revenue ferry of the 747 - i.e. 3 engine ferry (the procedure is in the AFM) - but I've never heard of anything equivalent for the 777 (or any commercial twin).
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 00:59
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I'm with Airbubba. There is an approved procedure to do engine out, non-revenue ferry of the 747 - i.e. 3 engine ferry (the procedure is in the AFM) - but I've never heard of anything equivalent for the 777 (or any commercial twin).
If it's non-revenue and the crew agrees why can't you get approval?

Don't they do test flights with an engine out on takeoff?
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 01:20
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If it's non-revenue and the crew agrees why can't you get approval?

Don't they do test flights with an engine out on takeoff?
They do flight tests where they do a fuel cut at V1, but I've never heard of a test where they did a takeoff on a single engine from brake release. And there are special requirements for such tests - including doing it out of some place like Edwards where if things go badly they're not apt to land on someone... (although to be fair, there's not much around Iqaluit to hit if it does go wrong)
The FAA tends to frown on such things - even for flight testing or non-revenue.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 01:27
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo
Don't they do test flights with an engine out on takeoff?
I'm not rightly sure they start the takeoff roll with an engine shutdown in a Boeing.

Hank Beaird did demo this questionable maneuver in 1964 with a fed onboard however. It was in N801L, the first of two Learjet prototypes. Unfortunately, they had left the spoilers up after the previous landing and balled the plane up in a field off the end of the runway at ICT. Hank and the fed were unhurt but Lear had to exhibit the second prototype at the upcoming Reading, PA airshow without a finished interior.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 02:04
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As an aside, if anyone would like to know just how an engine change used to be done in the high Arctic, I strongly recommend a read of 'Bent Props & Blow Pots' by Rex Terpening.

Those guys were made of something different to all of us.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 03:54
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Single engine ferry permit eh ?


That's one i'd like to see !
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