26yr old Captain - 19yr old Co-Pilot
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I know in Vietnam lots of 19 years old kids flew dangerous combat missions , but that was deliberate ,as at this age one does not ask questions when told to drop napalm on targets if they were civilians around.
Back when BEA took on pilot cadets, it was apparently quite common for one to come straight from school at age 18 and be on the line when still aged 19.
One of the comments about the Trident accident at Staines was the ages of the crew other than the Captain, 22 and 24, the younger being P2 with six weeks service on the line and 29 hours on type.
One of the comments about the Trident accident at Staines was the ages of the crew other than the Captain, 22 and 24, the younger being P2 with six weeks service on the line and 29 hours on type.
An interesting debate, largely from the perspective of outside observers.
Another perspective would be that of a passenger.
Take an express train. The passengers have a choice of the guy with an unblemished record of driving the train, with 30 years experience.
Or.
You can have a brand new driver, at the minimum age.
Who would a majority of passengers choose, if you are being honest?
The influx of new blood into the industry is a wonderful thing, but there is a danger here of trying to claim experience counts for nothing.
I do remember a safety system at a previous airline where they ask, in every safety report, what experience levels the crew have. Why is this, one wonders.
Does any new Captain think he would have done a better job than a certain Captain, landing in a river with no engines? if they do, then they would be a fool.
We are all on the same team, but lets keep it real.
Another perspective would be that of a passenger.
Take an express train. The passengers have a choice of the guy with an unblemished record of driving the train, with 30 years experience.
Or.
You can have a brand new driver, at the minimum age.
Who would a majority of passengers choose, if you are being honest?
The influx of new blood into the industry is a wonderful thing, but there is a danger here of trying to claim experience counts for nothing.
I do remember a safety system at a previous airline where they ask, in every safety report, what experience levels the crew have. Why is this, one wonders.
Does any new Captain think he would have done a better job than a certain Captain, landing in a river with no engines? if they do, then they would be a fool.
We are all on the same team, but lets keep it real.
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Does any new Captain think he would have done a better job than a certain Captain, landing in a river with no engines? if they do, then they would be a fool.
The Hudson event ? I think 99% of pilots given the built up area would have taken to the river a successful outcome being part skill part luck ))
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
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I agree on the experience thing but they will get that pretty quickly flying 4 sector days in a mass of weather also flying as an FO they will experience a lot of the decisions and conditions flying with other Captains
The Hudson event ? I think 99% of pilots given the built up area would have taken to the river a successful outcome being part skill part luck ))
The Hudson event ? I think 99% of pilots given the built up area would have taken to the river a successful outcome being part skill part luck ))
" With authority comes greater responsibility. A captain needs leadership skills to take individuals on his crew and make them feel and perform like a team. It`s a heavy professional burden on the captain to know he may be called upon to tap into the depths of his experience, the breadth of his knowledge, and his ability to think quickly, weighing everything he knows while accounting for what he cannot know."
By the way, my understanding of the book is that it is not about the so called "Miracle on the Hudson". It is all about what it takes, what it means to be a pilot in command of an aircraft. The title of the book is wholly appropriate.
You think 99% of pilots would have gone for the river as this was the Hobson`s choice and that the ingredients for the successful outcome included luck. Millions believe in luck and for that they bet on the lottery every week. Do they all become overnight millionaires. Do you think Sully bet on luck. The weather conditions were not adverse, it was not night, there was no fire, it did not happen at a lower altitude, it happened precisely at the right time and at the right place. All so conveniently ordered and arranged by the crones of fate who had decreed luck for Sully, his crew and passengers.
I think the only lucky thing for all concerned, in the aircraft and on the ground was Sully in the left seat. A man of great integrity, sound judgement and great experience, completely devoted to his profession as a pilot.
I think all those who aspire to the job should be made to read his book. They will be humbled, just as I was.
Lets get this young age thing in perspective shall we. Bomber Command was awash with 19yr old aircrews who managed quite well thankyou. Why some of these whippersnappers even managed to stop the Luftwaffe in its tracks in 1940. Non one complained about their ages then. Competency is all whether threading an airliner through crowded skies or braving Bremens flak.
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Prangster no need for time travel back 76 years. Lots of competency going on currently over Syria. Maybe when they have finished with all their competency bit over there they can jump straight in the left seats of our airliners and take us on holiday, giving us a jolly good time looping the loop all the way. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead chaps fashion. Would be great don`t you think.
A lot of comments here criticising this captain (and maybe 20 something captains in general) for lacking experience, lacking knowledge, lacking judgement etc due to age. The captain in question has been flying as an FO in this company for over 5 years, meaning 4000-5000ish hours in the right seat, meaning they are not exactly inexperienced. 5 years from employment to command upgrade is a substantial amount of time at a lot of airlines (and would be considered long at some), so would these people criticise someone in their 30's or 40's who had started flying later in life, and three done 5yrs in the RH seat before upgrading?
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As an LAE of 42 experience, I would always welcome an older Captain with debriefing and discussing of any in depth aircraft defects than young captain who would return aircraft to stand with 200 kgs of fuel below min. after engine started. Experience counts.
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I'm commenting on this article from a standpoint of someone who has been in her shoes(ish).
I attained command on the 737NG with a well known European LCC at the age of 24 and at present I have about 3500 hours as PIC to my name with a total 6500 hours at the age of 28.
At certain times in my early career as a captain I have operated flights where the combined flight crew experience did not exceed 45 years of age and 4000 fight hours total. Coincidentally, I have at the age of 24, once or twice, been the oldest crew member on board the aircraft.
I can't make any assumptions on how those facts would be perceived by passengers should they be aware of those numbers.
Looking back at the past four years however I can say, without a doubt, the biggest challenges faced by myself as a commander have been of a human nature.
The practice of operating aircraft, again in my personal opinion, comes down to the application of knowledge and skills. Your success here is directly proportional to how hard one works at improving these skills.
But human interaction is a whole different animal altogether. Conflict resolution, leadership, communication, cultural differences, ageism, the game of tug between empathy and duty, just to name a few things. Every interaction with another human being is unique and the strongest challenges might pop up at the most unexpected moment.
There certainly have been times where I have felt out of my depth due to a lack of life experience. You make mistakes and you learn from them.
I attained command on the 737NG with a well known European LCC at the age of 24 and at present I have about 3500 hours as PIC to my name with a total 6500 hours at the age of 28.
At certain times in my early career as a captain I have operated flights where the combined flight crew experience did not exceed 45 years of age and 4000 fight hours total. Coincidentally, I have at the age of 24, once or twice, been the oldest crew member on board the aircraft.
I can't make any assumptions on how those facts would be perceived by passengers should they be aware of those numbers.
Looking back at the past four years however I can say, without a doubt, the biggest challenges faced by myself as a commander have been of a human nature.
The practice of operating aircraft, again in my personal opinion, comes down to the application of knowledge and skills. Your success here is directly proportional to how hard one works at improving these skills.
But human interaction is a whole different animal altogether. Conflict resolution, leadership, communication, cultural differences, ageism, the game of tug between empathy and duty, just to name a few things. Every interaction with another human being is unique and the strongest challenges might pop up at the most unexpected moment.
There certainly have been times where I have felt out of my depth due to a lack of life experience. You make mistakes and you learn from them.
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Chronus
I wasn't actually referring to him or what he did but to such an event! Yes he was a very brilliant, skilled and competent pilot.
I was talking about choices and the choices of landing into houses or if you have the glide range of putting down into a river.
As in any forced landing without power from a small aircraft up there is a large element of skill and some luck I don't take that back
Even in the Hudson case had the engines stopped at a lower altitude it would have been a different story so an element of luck has to be there
I remember after the event looking at London and the Thames and thinking whether anyone could put down there! Parts yes but there are many curves and bridges closer together as well as boats which could stray into your path so even with the larger, wider, straighter Hudson there has to be luck but at least the Hudson is a wide very long potential runway albeit water
Check this out? Could a 25 year old manage it? Maybe ?
I wasn't actually referring to him or what he did but to such an event! Yes he was a very brilliant, skilled and competent pilot.
I was talking about choices and the choices of landing into houses or if you have the glide range of putting down into a river.
As in any forced landing without power from a small aircraft up there is a large element of skill and some luck I don't take that back
Even in the Hudson case had the engines stopped at a lower altitude it would have been a different story so an element of luck has to be there
I remember after the event looking at London and the Thames and thinking whether anyone could put down there! Parts yes but there are many curves and bridges closer together as well as boats which could stray into your path so even with the larger, wider, straighter Hudson there has to be luck but at least the Hudson is a wide very long potential runway albeit water
Check this out? Could a 25 year old manage it? Maybe ?
As the public has come to understand it, Sully saved the lives of everybody on board through nerves of steel and superhuman flying skills. The truth isn’t quite so romantic...
[The] nuts and bolts of gliding into water aren’t especially difficult. The common sense of water landings is one of the reasons pilots don’t even train for them in simulators... and nowhere in the public discussion has the role of luck been adequately acknowledged. Specifically, the time and place where things went wrong. As it happened, it was daylight and the weather was reasonably good; there off Sullenberger’s left side was a 12-mile runway of smoothly flowing river, within swimming distance of the country’s largest city and its flotilla of rescue craft. Had the bird-strike occurred over a different part of the city, at a lower altitude (beyond gliding distance to the Hudson), or under more inclement weather conditions, the result was going to be an all-out catastrophe, and no amount of talent or skill was going to matter...
Nothing they did was easy, and a successful outcome was by no means guaranteed. But they did what they had to do, what they were trained to do, and what, presumably, any other crew would have done in that same situation. And let’s not forget the flight attendants, whose actions were no less commendable. Thus the passengers owe their survival not to miracles or heroics, but to less glamorous forces. They are, in descending order (pardon the pun): luck, professionalism, skill, and technology.
There’s little harm in celebrating the unlikely survival of 155 people, but terms like “hero” and “miracle” shouldn’t be thrown around lightly. A miracle describes an outcome that cannot be rationally explained. Everything that happened on the river that day can be rationally explained.
http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...-on-the-hudson
[The] nuts and bolts of gliding into water aren’t especially difficult. The common sense of water landings is one of the reasons pilots don’t even train for them in simulators... and nowhere in the public discussion has the role of luck been adequately acknowledged. Specifically, the time and place where things went wrong. As it happened, it was daylight and the weather was reasonably good; there off Sullenberger’s left side was a 12-mile runway of smoothly flowing river, within swimming distance of the country’s largest city and its flotilla of rescue craft. Had the bird-strike occurred over a different part of the city, at a lower altitude (beyond gliding distance to the Hudson), or under more inclement weather conditions, the result was going to be an all-out catastrophe, and no amount of talent or skill was going to matter...
Nothing they did was easy, and a successful outcome was by no means guaranteed. But they did what they had to do, what they were trained to do, and what, presumably, any other crew would have done in that same situation. And let’s not forget the flight attendants, whose actions were no less commendable. Thus the passengers owe their survival not to miracles or heroics, but to less glamorous forces. They are, in descending order (pardon the pun): luck, professionalism, skill, and technology.
There’s little harm in celebrating the unlikely survival of 155 people, but terms like “hero” and “miracle” shouldn’t be thrown around lightly. A miracle describes an outcome that cannot be rationally explained. Everything that happened on the river that day can be rationally explained.
http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...-on-the-hudson
Last edited by Pace; 30th Sep 2016 at 12:57.
Paxing All Over The World
EZ pick a young FO to match to the new Cpt. Had PR picked a 35yr SFO, the story would not have been so 'sweet' for the meedja.
Experience blows both ways - how old the Captain on Emirates 521...
This is yesterday's news.
Experience blows both ways - how old the Captain on Emirates 521...
This is yesterday's news.
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You rise to the occasion. From my experience, limited to a few years as a loco f/o and a few more as a flag carrier ditto, and a little bit of work with flight safety. Having flown with captains ranging from brand new 25 years olds up to 60+ guys with 40 years of experience, it's very rarely the young ones that are the problem. Most of the bad CRM I've seen comes from the older Captains and f/os. The truly brilliant ones is a vast mix of age and experience. My conclusion is that personality is what counts - not how long time you've been incompetent.
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Its annoying that the PR at easyjet didn't research their claim. She's clearly not the youngest Airline Captain. The internet shows that in a fairly quick internet search and so many posts by people on pprune are offering up names airline and dates, to prove it. The CNN article at the beginning doesn't differentiate with her being female it just says "Their employer, the British carrier Easyjet, believes McWilliams has become the world's youngest commercial airline captain" is it wrong that this frustrates me? I always felt accuracy was an important part of aviation, granted maybe not Airline PR.
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Had a friend back in the days of Air Anglia and F27. They diverted from Norwich to EMA and were told to rent a car from company partner Hertz and bring the crew of 4 back to base. No car allowed as the whole crew was under 25yrs old. Hm?
I regularly flew as SLF on Garuda F28s in the 1980s and all their aircrew appeared to be about 15. Baseball caps, string-back racing gloves and reflective sunglasses. Curling, Spitfire-type approaches to 6000' runways but only using the first 1000'. For an aircraft without reverse thrust it could stop on a sixpence but if you didn't have your seatbelt on you'd end up in the cockpit. Oh, and navigating by joining up the red dots on the wx radar. Laugh? I thought I'd never start.