BA pilot upsets DUB ATC once again.
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Even if the BA crew had been monitoring the ground frequency and had heard her warning, it still came after the vigilant tug crew had already stopped the pushback of their own accord when they became aware of the conflict.
I'm sorry, that assumption you've made isn't clear from the transmission, hence why I hope a report is written. All transmissions will become clear.
I'm sorry, that assumption you've made isn't clear from the transmission, hence why I hope a report is written. All transmissions will become clear.
BA crew utterly unprofessional: regardless of comms with ground crew, the other pilot should listen to the radio. The controller remained calm and professional; other aircraft should not comment - also unprofessional. Whether the maxed out controller made a mistake or not, she is the only one who comes away with any credit imho.
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Did the ground controller ever call the BAW81D? It's not on the recording, so we'll never know. Perhaps it's just another edited hatchet job by a spotter with an agenda like the BAW845 recording (because that was nothing like what really happened either).
The published recording does not support either side of the argument, either of terms of what was said or the time delay between clearances to push.
From memory of that part of Dublin airport, two aircraft pushed to start points B and C at the same time would have to cross paths, so something should have been said on air so that both crews had full situational awareness. On a busy ground frequency, surely that's the controller's remit?
However, the tone and attitude of the BA pilot was a bit haughty. Who would have thought it...
From memory of that part of Dublin airport, two aircraft pushed to start points B and C at the same time would have to cross paths, so something should have been said on air so that both crews had full situational awareness. On a busy ground frequency, surely that's the controller's remit?
However, the tone and attitude of the BA pilot was a bit haughty. Who would have thought it...
BA: "ground crew have stopped the push"
Ground: "I was trying to call you, sir, but you weren't listening out"
BA: "I wasn't listening out because we were talking to the ground crew and they're telling us the same thing"
So no assumption involved - the controller's unheard attempt to stop the pushback came after the tug crew had done exactly that.
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Once again, we have trial by internet and selective evidence.
Maybe it would all be clearer if we heard the full recording, no edits, no timing changes.
A report should be filed, so that lessons can be learned, but this butchered recording makes it difficult to see who needs to learn the most. Except Nigel who needs to be reminded what the Radio is for. She had enough on her plate without listening to him throwing his rattle out of the pram.
Maybe it would all be clearer if we heard the full recording, no edits, no timing changes.
A report should be filed, so that lessons can be learned, but this butchered recording makes it difficult to see who needs to learn the most. Except Nigel who needs to be reminded what the Radio is for. She had enough on her plate without listening to him throwing his rattle out of the pram.
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There are airports where the air-crew is given clearance to push & start and the vigilant tug-crew are responsible for the safe push. A crash was prevented by a vigilant push-back crew and ground-man. Isn't that exactly what they are for. Congrats for doing their job in the same way we prevent crashes every day even though being surrounded by threats of multiple proportions & varieties.
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The pilot is allowed to air his displeasure at the mix up. But, as mentioned, the ground crew is just as integral part of the team as the folks in the FD. They stopped. Incident averted. It's a busy frequency. People get stepped on all the time. And to justify the missed call because they weren't monitoring the frequency is wrong as well.
I can't recall the number of times I have been asked to cancel/hold pushback due to conflicting traffic. Someone in the FD is always monitoring the frequency. If the ASR was filed, I have a feeling it might backfire on this pilot.
And to clog an already busy frequency with a puerile comment that he will be filing an ASR? Ya. TOOL seems an appropriate description.
I can't recall the number of times I have been asked to cancel/hold pushback due to conflicting traffic. Someone in the FD is always monitoring the frequency. If the ASR was filed, I have a feeling it might backfire on this pilot.
And to clog an already busy frequency with a puerile comment that he will be filing an ASR? Ya. TOOL seems an appropriate description.
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Once again, we have trial by internet and selective evidence.
"This thread is a right load of Swaag" for example.
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Listening to the communications on a different source, the controller said "An ATR (unintelligible) pushing back behind you to point Bravo". That was it, no call signs and no instruction to hold etc. Surely, the ATR should not have been given clearance to push back if it was going to conflict with the BA flight? I also think the pilot reported his intention to file a report in a calm, matter of fact manner. No "haughtiness" or arrogant about it.
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This is honestly some of the biggest nonsense I've ever read on this "Professional" pilots forum.
From the recording, she gave no warning, the Stobart, who had been cleared to push after the BA aircraft, started their push, and the BA ground crew stopped the push. So during this period, the BA pilots will have their headsets on, and would of course be listening to the frequency, I think they might have managed to hear "BAW81D stop push" but the ground crew beat them too it.
So he raises this, rightly, to the ground controller. Instead of just apologising, and getting on with life, the controller immediately tries to place the blame on the crew.
So the Shamrock Pilots start chipping in with their complete lack of professionalism, and call the BA pilot a "tool" on open frequency, and the BA pilot is the bad guy for filing an ASR? How about every single day in LHR when Shamrocks are told to MONITOR tower and immediately check in with "Able intersection...... If it helps" with a queue of heavies in front, and an exceptionally busy frequency.
99.9% of *actual* Airline Pilots would I'm sure also file if they had been cleared to push back in to another aircraft, and a collision was avoided at the last line of defence (the tug crew). It's not to apportion blame or somehow get one over on the controller, it's to highlight that a failing had occurred. How do you know this hasn't happened with the same gate 15 times in the last year and a trend is developing? You don't, unless you file, and the company has the data.
Anyone characterising all BA pilots as unprofessional, honestly, the chip on the shoulder is real.
From the recording, she gave no warning, the Stobart, who had been cleared to push after the BA aircraft, started their push, and the BA ground crew stopped the push. So during this period, the BA pilots will have their headsets on, and would of course be listening to the frequency, I think they might have managed to hear "BAW81D stop push" but the ground crew beat them too it.
So he raises this, rightly, to the ground controller. Instead of just apologising, and getting on with life, the controller immediately tries to place the blame on the crew.
So the Shamrock Pilots start chipping in with their complete lack of professionalism, and call the BA pilot a "tool" on open frequency, and the BA pilot is the bad guy for filing an ASR? How about every single day in LHR when Shamrocks are told to MONITOR tower and immediately check in with "Able intersection...... If it helps" with a queue of heavies in front, and an exceptionally busy frequency.
99.9% of *actual* Airline Pilots would I'm sure also file if they had been cleared to push back in to another aircraft, and a collision was avoided at the last line of defence (the tug crew). It's not to apportion blame or somehow get one over on the controller, it's to highlight that a failing had occurred. How do you know this hasn't happened with the same gate 15 times in the last year and a trend is developing? You don't, unless you file, and the company has the data.
Anyone characterising all BA pilots as unprofessional, honestly, the chip on the shoulder is real.
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Perhaps we should all understand that the YouTube account has a history of posting anti-BA clips, as well as the fact that the audio is edited.
Nobody knows the full story here.
Safety wouldn't improve without reporting. Nobody should be criticised for reporting on anything; as an ATCO I'd like to know if any crews on my frequency are going to file because then I can file a corresponding report so that investigations can have a more complete picture.
Nobody knows the full story here.
Safety wouldn't improve without reporting. Nobody should be criticised for reporting on anything; as an ATCO I'd like to know if any crews on my frequency are going to file because then I can file a corresponding report so that investigations can have a more complete picture.
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It all sounds much like pushing and shoving at a football match and saying "honest it ain`t me who done it".
Nige will have to go to elocution classes, learn a bit like, right speak, drop h`s, say mate and ta often, and he will never again be pushed and shoved and be suspected of arrogance and unprofessionalism.
By the way are all Niges Sirs.
Nige will have to go to elocution classes, learn a bit like, right speak, drop h`s, say mate and ta often, and he will never again be pushed and shoved and be suspected of arrogance and unprofessionalism.
By the way are all Niges Sirs.
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Looks like pure sensationalism based on winks and nods to me. Overworked controller doesn't give a timely warning, or speaks so fast that the warning isn't heard/understood. Pilot, whose ass is after all on the line literally, is justifiably frustrated at the situation. Other pilots pile on. First pilot pushes back. I can't fault either of the principals. I can fault an overworked system and 3rd-party provocateurs. Also, there is no such thing as a "minor" safety cock-up in aviation, eh? Well within his duty to file.
Perhaps given the large number of incidents at Dublin, with "Ground" operating one part of the airport, "Delivery" also doing the other half of the ground frequency, and the local culture being one of issuing very long and complex taxi instructions at "New York fast" it's time for them to have a rethink? Clearing someone to push into the path of another aircraft (if that is what happened) is not acceptable, and they need to look at why it happened.
I was in and out of Dublin for years when I worked for the big Irish Loco and it was always a nightmare.
I also view it as good manners to tell someone you're going to file as it means they don't get a surprise phone call a few weeks later.
I was in and out of Dublin for years when I worked for the big Irish Loco and it was always a nightmare.
I also view it as good manners to tell someone you're going to file as it means they don't get a surprise phone call a few weeks later.