PM to get own plane for official trips
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PM to get own plane for official trips
According to the BBC;
Full article; PM to get own plane for official trips - BBC News
I'm not sure where the £2,000 per hour figure comes from but it looks like nonsense to me. According to Wikipedia, the contract for 14 aircraft costs the MoD £390m per year.
This works out at £76,321 per aircraft per day made up of £15,656 running costs and the remainder covers the contractor's financing and profit. I don't know the full details of the contract so there may be additional costs to add on top of this.
The £2,000 per hour figure is therefore just a tiny part of the true cost. AFAIK, a standard A330 burns around 5,400kg to 6,100kg of fuel per hour in the cruise and I expect that the extra drag of the mission equipment on the tankers will add slightly to fuel burn, so £2,000 per hour would barely cover the fuel bill.
These costs exclude the £10 million it will cost for the VIP interior, the cost of which would need to be spread across the life of the interior fit (perhaps 10 years before it needs renewed / refurbished?) divided by the number of hours it is used in its lifetime. If the aircraft flies 300 hours per year in VIP configuration, and if the life of the VIP interior is ten years, this would work out at £3,333 per hour for the VIP interior. This figure could be more or less depending on the life of the interior and the number of flying hours it is used.
A round trip to Washington would involve around 16 hours of flight time, probably over at least two days and possibly longer depending on the duration of the visit. The true cost of such a trip is likely to be £76,321 per day (possibly more) times two days (and possibly more) divided by 16 hours which works out to be at least £9,540 per hour plus perhaps £3,333 per hour to recover the cost of the VIP interior giving a total of £12,873 per hour.
A trip to the G20 Summit in Antalya would likely involve around 4 hours flying time there and 4.5 hours on the way back. If the flight out is on the day before the summit and the flight back on the day after then the cost is likely to be £76,321 per day (possibly more) times four days divided by 8.5 hours which works out to be at least £35,916 per hour plus £3,333 per hour to recover the cost of the VIP interior giving a total of £39,249 per hour.
My numbers might be out for various reasons but £2,000 per hour sounds like a gross understatement.
Prime Minister David Cameron and senior ministers are to get their own plane for official trips. An RAF Voyager A330 air-to-air refuelling aircraft will be refitted at a cost of about £10m.
The government says the move will save about £775,000 a year as the plane will be cheaper than chartering flights. The BBC's Ross Hawkins said despite the predicted savings, the announcement was likely to prove controversial ahead of next week's Spending Review.
Most government departments are facing budget cuts of at least 25% over the next four years. A source said the PM's flights, using either Royal Squadron planes or long haul charter, cost on average £6,700 per flying hour and the RAF aircraft would cost £2,000. It would be available for refuelling when it wasn't in use. The flight would also be available to the Royal family.
The government says the move will save about £775,000 a year as the plane will be cheaper than chartering flights. The BBC's Ross Hawkins said despite the predicted savings, the announcement was likely to prove controversial ahead of next week's Spending Review.
Most government departments are facing budget cuts of at least 25% over the next four years. A source said the PM's flights, using either Royal Squadron planes or long haul charter, cost on average £6,700 per flying hour and the RAF aircraft would cost £2,000. It would be available for refuelling when it wasn't in use. The flight would also be available to the Royal family.
I'm not sure where the £2,000 per hour figure comes from but it looks like nonsense to me. According to Wikipedia, the contract for 14 aircraft costs the MoD £390m per year.
This works out at £76,321 per aircraft per day made up of £15,656 running costs and the remainder covers the contractor's financing and profit. I don't know the full details of the contract so there may be additional costs to add on top of this.
The £2,000 per hour figure is therefore just a tiny part of the true cost. AFAIK, a standard A330 burns around 5,400kg to 6,100kg of fuel per hour in the cruise and I expect that the extra drag of the mission equipment on the tankers will add slightly to fuel burn, so £2,000 per hour would barely cover the fuel bill.
These costs exclude the £10 million it will cost for the VIP interior, the cost of which would need to be spread across the life of the interior fit (perhaps 10 years before it needs renewed / refurbished?) divided by the number of hours it is used in its lifetime. If the aircraft flies 300 hours per year in VIP configuration, and if the life of the VIP interior is ten years, this would work out at £3,333 per hour for the VIP interior. This figure could be more or less depending on the life of the interior and the number of flying hours it is used.
A round trip to Washington would involve around 16 hours of flight time, probably over at least two days and possibly longer depending on the duration of the visit. The true cost of such a trip is likely to be £76,321 per day (possibly more) times two days (and possibly more) divided by 16 hours which works out to be at least £9,540 per hour plus perhaps £3,333 per hour to recover the cost of the VIP interior giving a total of £12,873 per hour.
A trip to the G20 Summit in Antalya would likely involve around 4 hours flying time there and 4.5 hours on the way back. If the flight out is on the day before the summit and the flight back on the day after then the cost is likely to be £76,321 per day (possibly more) times four days divided by 8.5 hours which works out to be at least £35,916 per hour plus £3,333 per hour to recover the cost of the VIP interior giving a total of £39,249 per hour.
My numbers might be out for various reasons but £2,000 per hour sounds like a gross understatement.
I know that posters on JB will be quick to rubbish such an idea - they did when it was suggested for Tony Blair - but all the worlds principal nations, and few few too many banana republics have an aircraft for the use of the heads of government / state and it really is about time the UK had the same.
Having the PM or Monarch turning up at major summits or state visits in some piece of kit chartered on the open market doesn't give the right impression of UK abroad - unless we want to give the impression of a cash strapped, insignificant island that can't afford anything better!
Having the PM or Monarch turning up at major summits or state visits in some piece of kit chartered on the open market doesn't give the right impression of UK abroad - unless we want to give the impression of a cash strapped, insignificant island that can't afford anything better!
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ATNotts said;
I don't disagree with these points but for the BBC's "source" to say that the justification is down to the A332 Voyager costing £2,000 per hour is at best, in my opinion, a significant understatement and leaves the impression of either a rather uninformed "source" or a government deliberately trying to deceive the electorate. Who is this mysterious, anonymous "source" the BBC was talking to?
The electorate deserves to know the true cost.
I know that posters on JB will be quick to rubbish such an idea - they did when it was suggested for Tony Blair - but all the worlds principal nations, and few few too many banana republics have an aircraft for the use of the heads of government / state and it really is about time the UK had the same.
Having the PM or Monarch turning up at major summits or state visits in some piece of kit chartered on the open market doesn't give the right impression of UK abroad - unless we want to give the impression of a cash strapped, insignificant island that can't afford anything better!
Having the PM or Monarch turning up at major summits or state visits in some piece of kit chartered on the open market doesn't give the right impression of UK abroad - unless we want to give the impression of a cash strapped, insignificant island that can't afford anything better!
The electorate deserves to know the true cost.
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Government deceive the electorate !!!!!!
Shame the government can't find funds to protect the NHS which at the end of the day, 90% of the electorate use.
Still, the National Lottery has plenty of funds available for spending on repairing medieval buildings and walls.
Country is f****d
Shame the government can't find funds to protect the NHS which at the end of the day, 90% of the electorate use.
Still, the National Lottery has plenty of funds available for spending on repairing medieval buildings and walls.
Country is f****d
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What crazy world are we living in, where we think it's worth almost £800 a MINUTE to transport a politician and his minions.
makes a mockery of "save the planet" eco-friendly yogurt-knitting, sandal-wearing sops to appeasement.
So, the truth is, - greed and profligacy are good, don't do as I do, do as i tell you.
I'm sure Whitehall could buy every single seat on a scheduled flight and it would still work out cheaper than this barmy waste.
As DC9-32 stated...the country is f.....d..... well, no, on second thoughts, it's well and truly pregnant....it was f.....ed a goodly time ago.
makes a mockery of "save the planet" eco-friendly yogurt-knitting, sandal-wearing sops to appeasement.
So, the truth is, - greed and profligacy are good, don't do as I do, do as i tell you.
I'm sure Whitehall could buy every single seat on a scheduled flight and it would still work out cheaper than this barmy waste.
As DC9-32 stated...the country is f.....d..... well, no, on second thoughts, it's well and truly pregnant....it was f.....ed a goodly time ago.
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Maybe the PM is now frightened to fly on chartered aircraft
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Well, if those pesky huns can afford to have two A340, two A319ACJ, four Global 5000 and three AS532 in VIP configuration for Mom (Merkel) and her cronies, sorry, government, for official transportation, surely the UK can afford one A330 for the same use, can it?
Problem is they won't be able to operate it out of Northolt. It'll give them the excuse to disband No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron and hence close Northolt.
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It would be fascinating to know the intricacies of the FSTA contract in this context. Does it fall under civilian revenue flying ( therefore AirTanker's remit ) because they certainly aren't service personnel being trooped on MoD orders.
How will it affect contracted service delivery? Will there be a surcharge for additional unprogrammed usage?
And I thought the mil-kit Voyagers were restricted as to which countries they could visit due to sensitive NATO-standard kit onboard. And not just those on the Axis of Evil; Voyagers have to dog-leg around Israel.
The whole idea reeks of COTAM-envy and someone reckons they've found a clever solution.
I wouldn't care if they announced a few Falcon 7Xs or A318s or whatever to be bought for the RAF, but messing around with the Voyager fleet will just end in tears.
How will it affect contracted service delivery? Will there be a surcharge for additional unprogrammed usage?
And I thought the mil-kit Voyagers were restricted as to which countries they could visit due to sensitive NATO-standard kit onboard. And not just those on the Axis of Evil; Voyagers have to dog-leg around Israel.
The whole idea reeks of COTAM-envy and someone reckons they've found a clever solution.
I wouldn't care if they announced a few Falcon 7Xs or A318s or whatever to be bought for the RAF, but messing around with the Voyager fleet will just end in tears.
Last edited by El Bunto; 19th Nov 2015 at 20:48.
I thought this thread would turn into something JB-esque!!
It would be fascinating to know the intricacies of the FSTA contract in this context. Does it fall under civilian revenue flying ( therefore AirTanker's remit ) because they certainly aren't service personnel being trooped on MoD orders.
How will it affect contracted service delivery? Will there be a surcharge for additional unprogrammed usage?
And I thought the mil-kit Voyagers were restricted as to which countries they could visit due to sensitive NATO-standard kit onboard. And not just those on the Axis of Evil; Voyagers have to dog-leg around Israel.
The whole idea reeks of COTAM-envy and someone reckons they've found a clever solution.
I wouldn't care if they announced a few Falcon 7Xs or A318s or whatever to be bought for the RAF, but messing around with the Voyager fleet will just end in tears.
How will it affect contracted service delivery? Will there be a surcharge for additional unprogrammed usage?
And I thought the mil-kit Voyagers were restricted as to which countries they could visit due to sensitive NATO-standard kit onboard. And not just those on the Axis of Evil; Voyagers have to dog-leg around Israel.
The whole idea reeks of COTAM-envy and someone reckons they've found a clever solution.
I wouldn't care if they announced a few Falcon 7Xs or A318s or whatever to be bought for the RAF, but messing around with the Voyager fleet will just end in tears.
The RAAF fas a fleeet of two BBJs and a handful of Challengers for VIP use. The PM and the Head of State's representative use them to all parts of the world. In this last fortnight, the PM has visited Jakarta, Berlin, Antalya and Manila. I can't see why HMQ and the PM couldn't have a similarly understated and modest fleet.
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This is not about why or if the PM should have a dedicated aircraft. It's more about how it's costs are presented to the people who will ultimately pay for it and at £2k an hour, I'm no expert, but I'd say they are way off the mark. Even todays ACMI rates are higher than that and that's for a bucket and spade aircraft.
I sense deceit creeping in (again) when it comes to what government tells Joe Public.
Funny though, within a week of people bombing close to the border of UK, and Mr P confirming it was a bomb in coke can that bought down one of his countrie;s jets, David wants his own private jet.
Call me cynical....
Junior Doctors in UK to strike because they are underpaid and were offered 11% pay rise to a start salary of around £25k and government want doctors to work weekends too.
As a comparison, salary for a railway signalman were more than £30k over 10 years ago.
Government can buy into a private jet whilst cuts to the police and health are going forward.
I say again, the country is f***d.
I sense deceit creeping in (again) when it comes to what government tells Joe Public.
Funny though, within a week of people bombing close to the border of UK, and Mr P confirming it was a bomb in coke can that bought down one of his countrie;s jets, David wants his own private jet.
Call me cynical....
Junior Doctors in UK to strike because they are underpaid and were offered 11% pay rise to a start salary of around £25k and government want doctors to work weekends too.
As a comparison, salary for a railway signalman were more than £30k over 10 years ago.
Government can buy into a private jet whilst cuts to the police and health are going forward.
I say again, the country is f***d.