Shorts 330/360
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Had a colleague who used the fly the shed for British Midland and he recounted a tale of flying from Heathrow to Brum one winters evening and starting out flight planned at something like FL80 but being down at 60 by WCO and dropping out of controlled airspace with the speed slowly decaying sometime later. Made it to BHX but he wasn't impressed to say the least. He called them flying ice cubes.
This video gives an idea. ( albeit from across the pond) of how icing built up on the 360
This video gives an idea. ( albeit from across the pond) of how icing built up on the 360
Yikes!
Considering their use in northern climes in the USA, and in night cargo work, I'm amazed that there weren't more losses through icing.
The Aer Lingus one at Castle Don. is notable. The Loganair incident at Edinburgh, was down to engine ice ingestion, so I read in the AAIB report.
I seem to recall reading a "I Learnt About Flying From That"-type article about a 360 having similar problems, which prompted the question.
Was this characteristic documented, or was it a case of learning on the job (quickly and memorably...)?
Considering their use in northern climes in the USA, and in night cargo work, I'm amazed that there weren't more losses through icing.
The Aer Lingus one at Castle Don. is notable. The Loganair incident at Edinburgh, was down to engine ice ingestion, so I read in the AAIB report.
I seem to recall reading a "I Learnt About Flying From That"-type article about a 360 having similar problems, which prompted the question.
Was this characteristic documented, or was it a case of learning on the job (quickly and memorably...)?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
The Aer Lingus happened late on a Friday night, too late for the next day's papers. The front page of the Sundays carried aerial pictures of the crash, and we gave them out to pax as they boarded for the flight I discussed a couple of posts above. You can imagine the atmosphere in the cabin; the windows iced up, and there was the racket as ice was thrown off the props.
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My first job was on these with Loganair.
Of course, I thought it was great!
General handling got better and better as there was no autopilot. Normally flew the downwind leg flat out, then did a 180 degree descending turn, while configuring to land. Roll the wing up and flare. None of this stabilised approach malarkey!
Other memories were of the leaky hatch above the FOs seat, usually stuffed with J Cloths.... But still leaking.
Yes, it carried ice, but not well. Felt like a couple of tons....
Used to do base checks on the aircraft- there was no sim- damn thing barely climbed on one engine, and that was empty! I always thought that with a real engine failure on a heavy one, we'd only be going in one direction, and it wasn't up.
Another story was about the one taxiing out at Glasgow. The Air Canada behind asked the tower what type it was, and tower said 'it's a shed'. Loganair captain immediately replied, 'it's a Shorts SD-360 actually'.
To which the AC crew responded 'really. Did you make it yourself?'
Anyway, was fun to fly and passengers really liked it. They did not regard the move to the Jetstream 41 as any improvement.
Another time, we'd eased up to 14,000' for some reason, when our sole hostie asked if we were flying higher than usual? Yes, we said, but how can you tell?
Oh, a passenger has just had the glass jump off his watch.
Great times, great folk to fly with and an aircraft that flew better than it looked. Mind you, it looked grim.
Another time, a pax wrote in to comment on his flight. He wrote that he'd boarded the bus to go out to the aircraft, and was surprised when the bus took off!
Was quite exciting for a first job. Didn't realise how good it was really.
Of course, I thought it was great!
General handling got better and better as there was no autopilot. Normally flew the downwind leg flat out, then did a 180 degree descending turn, while configuring to land. Roll the wing up and flare. None of this stabilised approach malarkey!
Other memories were of the leaky hatch above the FOs seat, usually stuffed with J Cloths.... But still leaking.
Yes, it carried ice, but not well. Felt like a couple of tons....
Used to do base checks on the aircraft- there was no sim- damn thing barely climbed on one engine, and that was empty! I always thought that with a real engine failure on a heavy one, we'd only be going in one direction, and it wasn't up.
Another story was about the one taxiing out at Glasgow. The Air Canada behind asked the tower what type it was, and tower said 'it's a shed'. Loganair captain immediately replied, 'it's a Shorts SD-360 actually'.
To which the AC crew responded 'really. Did you make it yourself?'
Anyway, was fun to fly and passengers really liked it. They did not regard the move to the Jetstream 41 as any improvement.
Another time, we'd eased up to 14,000' for some reason, when our sole hostie asked if we were flying higher than usual? Yes, we said, but how can you tell?
Oh, a passenger has just had the glass jump off his watch.
Great times, great folk to fly with and an aircraft that flew better than it looked. Mind you, it looked grim.
Another time, a pax wrote in to comment on his flight. He wrote that he'd boarded the bus to go out to the aircraft, and was surprised when the bus took off!
Was quite exciting for a first job. Didn't realise how good it was really.
What super memories! Thanks for sharing these.
>I always thought that with a real engine failure on a heavy one, we'd only be going in one direction, and it wasn't up.
This happened on a Genair 100-series 330 out of Teesside for Glasgow, so I heard around the airport (I worked on the ground there in 1984).
They lost an engine and declared "Pan" due to " 'dem Laws of Physics" affecting their ability to stay level with 30 pax. I'm amazed that the shed was ever given a C of A, considering such poor single engine performance.
I seem to recall that later versions were better. Maybe they gave you a better choice of open fields or long beaches...
>I always thought that with a real engine failure on a heavy one, we'd only be going in one direction, and it wasn't up.
This happened on a Genair 100-series 330 out of Teesside for Glasgow, so I heard around the airport (I worked on the ground there in 1984).
They lost an engine and declared "Pan" due to " 'dem Laws of Physics" affecting their ability to stay level with 30 pax. I'm amazed that the shed was ever given a C of A, considering such poor single engine performance.
I seem to recall that later versions were better. Maybe they gave you a better choice of open fields or long beaches...
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Had some great rides in shorts 330 one from Miami to Nassau with American international with the seat cushion as your life raft and a titian shorts from stanstead to liege on a sports charter great flying low over the channel then in a low approach to liege remined of the film tonight's target is Berlin
Air Cargo Carriers are the largest operator in the world with around 30 in service. They fly mainly for UPS out of Louisville to various weird and wonderful points across the Midwest and South-East US.
I was lucky enough to fly the full-motion simulator (the only one in the world I think) at La Guardia back in 2007.
My company at the time built them a fixed base device which is still in operation at their Milwaukee base. Here is a video of it in operation:
http://youtu.be/5aPZgAA0Cdc
I was lucky enough to fly the full-motion simulator (the only one in the world I think) at La Guardia back in 2007.
My company at the time built them a fixed base device which is still in operation at their Milwaukee base. Here is a video of it in operation:
http://youtu.be/5aPZgAA0Cdc
A Metropolitan Airways SD330 in the 1980s flying from Birmingham to Cardiff had an engine failure. London ATC filed an MOR due to the aircraft being unable to maintain FL60. The reason was that the crew were slow to go to Max Continuous Power on the good engine. There was a very good reason for the delay in increasing the power, but I couldn't say why on this forum!
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My first day line training on the Shed. GLA-Islay-GLA. Me and Ray Mitchell.
Took off rwy 23 and into the clag at 200'.
Flew to Islay to do the NDB/ DME letdown with rain flowing UP the windscreen and landing on my head. Tried fiddling with the J cloths, but nothing seemed to work. Never saw the ground after taking off, and don't forget the Shed had only 'green screen' nav. No GPS or IRS. Just needles, VOR and beam bar.
Done the approach and saw nothing. Went around.
Done it again. Nothing. Around again.
Training Capt. did the next one. Another go around, a wee bit after the MAP.....
I did the GA. Getting ok at these by now.
Chucked it, and took the pax back to Glasgow.
Done the ILS to minimums and landed off it. All we'd seen of the ground, the whole flight, was a glimpse of the beach near Port Ellen....
Went home with knees trembling....
Took off rwy 23 and into the clag at 200'.
Flew to Islay to do the NDB/ DME letdown with rain flowing UP the windscreen and landing on my head. Tried fiddling with the J cloths, but nothing seemed to work. Never saw the ground after taking off, and don't forget the Shed had only 'green screen' nav. No GPS or IRS. Just needles, VOR and beam bar.
Done the approach and saw nothing. Went around.
Done it again. Nothing. Around again.
Training Capt. did the next one. Another go around, a wee bit after the MAP.....
I did the GA. Getting ok at these by now.
Chucked it, and took the pax back to Glasgow.
Done the ILS to minimums and landed off it. All we'd seen of the ground, the whole flight, was a glimpse of the beach near Port Ellen....
Went home with knees trembling....
Last edited by AtomKraft; 18th Apr 2015 at 14:07.
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Another time, flew with Moody Ken on a GLA- BEB- SYY early morning freight flight. 4.5 tonnes of newspapers for the He-Brides.
Stitch shaker activated continuously as we descended into BEB in ice and IMC. Nothing would stop it, and it's a bad feeling when you are holding the controls- a bit like flying a pneumatic road drill that won't turn off. Capt pulled the CB in the end, thank God.
Did the VOR at Benny and saw SFA.
Diverted to SYY, and shot the VOR to 36. Nothing.
Went around and shot the bloody NDB or VOR, I can't remember, to 18.
FA again.
Diverted to, and landed at INV.
I was getting used to it by this time.
Stitch shaker activated continuously as we descended into BEB in ice and IMC. Nothing would stop it, and it's a bad feeling when you are holding the controls- a bit like flying a pneumatic road drill that won't turn off. Capt pulled the CB in the end, thank God.
Did the VOR at Benny and saw SFA.
Diverted to SYY, and shot the VOR to 36. Nothing.
Went around and shot the bloody NDB or VOR, I can't remember, to 18.
FA again.
Diverted to, and landed at INV.
I was getting used to it by this time.
Last edited by AtomKraft; 18th Apr 2015 at 14:08.
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Another one was rocking up to Scumburgh on time, and doing that cloud break procedure, put the gear down but only got two greens.
We decided ( when I say 'we'- my input was not great) to go to Wick. Tried everything, but no joy.
The aircraft had been landing at Barra, and the gear was suffering from the salty water.
Finished up as an emergency landing with the full 'brace brace' thing to the pax, but happily the Captain, Paul Wells, jolted the right gear down when he landed on the left one.
No drama.
We decided ( when I say 'we'- my input was not great) to go to Wick. Tried everything, but no joy.
The aircraft had been landing at Barra, and the gear was suffering from the salty water.
Finished up as an emergency landing with the full 'brace brace' thing to the pax, but happily the Captain, Paul Wells, jolted the right gear down when he landed on the left one.
No drama.
I seem to remember that turning on the A.C. in the 330 caused us to slow by 15-20kts. Once looked out and saw the engine intake glowing red, the anti ice mat had gone into thermal runaway.
I never saw any really serious things go wrong with it, I do seem to remember some of the characters flying it were a far greater hazard than the aeroplane ever was!
Happy days and great to have flown it
I never saw any really serious things go wrong with it, I do seem to remember some of the characters flying it were a far greater hazard than the aeroplane ever was!
Happy days and great to have flown it
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I flew as a passenger on a 360 many years ago out of Norwich - it was a special charter taking a group of enthusiasts down to RIAT Fairford. I remember it being b***dy hot, and the poor old shed sounded like it was at full power most of the way. On the return leg I managed to get the jump seat next to (and behind) the captain. We used an awful lot of Fairford's runway getting airborne. I'm fairly sure the aircon was turned off before the take off roll, and not put back on until we had reached some altitude. I was given a headset but the mic wasn't plugged in. It made for an interesting day out - we passed over Enstone and I remember looking down at the sorry remains of the Bristol Frightener which had ground looped only a few days earlier.
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7cyl.
Hi Paul! Long time no fly!
Yes, I didn't remember the wind, but then 45G50 wasn't really unusual up there was it???
I remember skating sideways along the runway at Islay on another dreadful day with crosswinds that were clearly high enough to re-establish the Sheds Xwind limits somewhat further up the Beaufort scale.
Happy days, and yes, have to agree with the poster who commented on the diversity of the characters who worked there. Hey, someone had to do it!
I remember one very stony silence after I mentioned to my Captain, that I'd once been a social worker.....best leave it that eh?
Drop me a pm if u like... Cheery, S.
Hi Paul! Long time no fly!
Yes, I didn't remember the wind, but then 45G50 wasn't really unusual up there was it???
I remember skating sideways along the runway at Islay on another dreadful day with crosswinds that were clearly high enough to re-establish the Sheds Xwind limits somewhat further up the Beaufort scale.
Happy days, and yes, have to agree with the poster who commented on the diversity of the characters who worked there. Hey, someone had to do it!
I remember one very stony silence after I mentioned to my Captain, that I'd once been a social worker.....best leave it that eh?
Drop me a pm if u like... Cheery, S.
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So they considered a well-used Nord 262 switched to engines for which parts were actually available to be an upgrade over the Shorts?
Go figure.
The Shorts were in commuter service under contract to at least one of the majors here in the US for a time.
I'm sorry that I missed flying on one.
Go figure.
The Shorts were in commuter service under contract to at least one of the majors here in the US for a time.
I'm sorry that I missed flying on one.
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C-23B+
The SD-360 conversion to C-23B+'s was a politically driven Pork Barrel project, utilizing high time & high cycle airframes converted to twin tailed ramp equipped Sherpas.
They continue to fly. Now "given" to the US Forest Service to replace more capable airplanes like the Turbine DC-3 and DHC-6.
This event has been written about on a fire related aviation site.
It is also replacing the C-23A Sherpa that the USFS got from the USAF back in the fall of 1991. Neither airplane has good performance in high altitude and hot temperature situations which includes most of the area of operation of the USFS. Interestingly the A models currently have fewer hours and cycles than the B+'s.
I agree with the previous post that the airplane carries a lot of ice but not very good. In my case it was a C-23A.
They continue to fly. Now "given" to the US Forest Service to replace more capable airplanes like the Turbine DC-3 and DHC-6.
This event has been written about on a fire related aviation site.
It is also replacing the C-23A Sherpa that the USFS got from the USAF back in the fall of 1991. Neither airplane has good performance in high altitude and hot temperature situations which includes most of the area of operation of the USFS. Interestingly the A models currently have fewer hours and cycles than the B+'s.
I agree with the previous post that the airplane carries a lot of ice but not very good. In my case it was a C-23A.
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A key factor in the fairly rapid decline in operational 330 numbers was (as is often the case with older aircraft) maintenance costs.
Most 330s were operated on either G- or N- registrations and were on the individual operators' approved maintenance schedules which included on-condition maintenance of the PT6-45R engines. This meant that by the time disposal was considered the engines' time since overhaul were way in excess of the manufacturer's schedule. Potential new operators in other countries therefore faced expensive overhauls before the aircraft could have operated. These airframes were not worth the cost of those overhauls which is why so many were parted out or simply scrapped. Shorts had provided residual value guarantees on the majority of airframes to get them financed in the first place. For the reasons above those values were too optimistic, so the British taxpayer ended up owning them towards the end of their useful life.
Most 330s were operated on either G- or N- registrations and were on the individual operators' approved maintenance schedules which included on-condition maintenance of the PT6-45R engines. This meant that by the time disposal was considered the engines' time since overhaul were way in excess of the manufacturer's schedule. Potential new operators in other countries therefore faced expensive overhauls before the aircraft could have operated. These airframes were not worth the cost of those overhauls which is why so many were parted out or simply scrapped. Shorts had provided residual value guarantees on the majority of airframes to get them financed in the first place. For the reasons above those values were too optimistic, so the British taxpayer ended up owning them towards the end of their useful life.
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Disappointingly BenAir didn't win the Royal Mail Christmas tender from Belfast to Edinburgh this year, so instead of a Shed in Belfast we have a Bin Air Texan-Tube.
A 330 passed-through Ronaldsway back in October heading to the UAE as a jump-ship. It was sold from the Air Cargo fleet and is to be joined by a second one in early 2016; here's hoping it will call-in to Belfast en route rather than pottering over its birthplace at 6,0000 ft
A 330 passed-through Ronaldsway back in October heading to the UAE as a jump-ship. It was sold from the Air Cargo fleet and is to be joined by a second one in early 2016; here's hoping it will call-in to Belfast en route rather than pottering over its birthplace at 6,0000 ft
