BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB
a voice piped up and said 'Nigel - either sh1t or get off the pot"
I have got to find an opportunity to use that one!Sometimes controllers get it wrong. I was once severely reprimanded by a DUB ATCO on GND frequency. It was completely inappropriate, partly because the controller was utterly mistaken and misinformed but also because of the patronising language he used on air. I was polite despite feeling aggrieved.
I'd say the DUB controller in this case sounded a bit stressed but that doesn't excuse a professional flight crew from accepting a line-up clearance when unready. Nor do the delay tactics paint them in a good light. They should have told the controller they needed a specific amount of time and if that wasn't possible due to the overall ATC picture, they should have vacated immediately.
As soon as he said 'a point of order" I knew he was looking for trouble.
All airlines have "difficult" crew members....what would be interesting to know is if the pilot was the "real" troublemaker or was he just relaying the Captains instructions.
Whatever had gone on before he had no right to refuse the clearances ATC he gave him....i think he got away lightly with her responses as I can think of a few places where the end result may not be so pretty.
All airlines have "difficult" crew members....what would be interesting to know is if the pilot was the "real" troublemaker or was he just relaying the Captains instructions.
Whatever had gone on before he had no right to refuse the clearances ATC he gave him....i think he got away lightly with her responses as I can think of a few places where the end result may not be so pretty.
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by Penko
Come on wiggy, we've all been there, called ready when we were really not fully ready, entering the runway with the fingers crossed, hoping to be absolutely ready once we line up...
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Happens all the time at most airports, particularly those with frequent delays. Guy alongside calls for start/push, doors still open / no push back in sight, it is a great way of jumping the Q, unless the tower (or the guy parked alongside you, who you are trying to screw 
) is paying attention.
liffy2A, I have not been in DUB more than 6 or 7 times this last 5 years but, I am mystified by your comment "The problem with DUblin is the short taxi to the runway. Cabin was not obviously ready and to start taxing to the holding point in the first place blocking all departure was not a great idea. However crew may not be familiar with that in Dublin. " is it mentioned somewhere that you don't call for taxi until fully ready for take-off ? if so that would be a first for any airport.
Individual cabin crew competence/motivation , pax behaviour & a thousand and one things can influence how long it takes to get the cabin ready. If we all taxi at 3kt I would wager that100% of the time we would be ready on reaching, & then we would have a "Nigel taxies at 3kts" thread. If the layout of the airport is so cr@p that one aircraft not being ready holds everyone up behind them, I would suggest that good old Irish skill of yore (laying of tarmac) should be used to good effect to build/extend a holding area alongside the holding point, & the procedures amended to mandate a passage through this area unless lining up immediately . . . This seems to me a very "local" problem, which operators could be advised of, but surely shouldn't have to change procedures (I.E don't call for taxi until fully ready for take off ) to accommodate.
) is paying attention. liffy2A, I have not been in DUB more than 6 or 7 times this last 5 years but, I am mystified by your comment "The problem with DUblin is the short taxi to the runway. Cabin was not obviously ready and to start taxing to the holding point in the first place blocking all departure was not a great idea. However crew may not be familiar with that in Dublin. " is it mentioned somewhere that you don't call for taxi until fully ready for take-off ? if so that would be a first for any airport.
Individual cabin crew competence/motivation , pax behaviour & a thousand and one things can influence how long it takes to get the cabin ready. If we all taxi at 3kt I would wager that100% of the time we would be ready on reaching, & then we would have a "Nigel taxies at 3kts" thread. If the layout of the airport is so cr@p that one aircraft not being ready holds everyone up behind them, I would suggest that good old Irish skill of yore (laying of tarmac) should be used to good effect to build/extend a holding area alongside the holding point, & the procedures amended to mandate a passage through this area unless lining up immediately . . . This seems to me a very "local" problem, which operators could be advised of, but surely shouldn't have to change procedures (I.E don't call for taxi until fully ready for take off ) to accommodate.
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I am ready.
Actually I am not ready, I'll have to wait two minutes.
No, I won't vacate, just standby.
Now I'm actually fully ready.
Standby, you interrupt my checklist
We are fully ready madam, stand by.
We are fully ready what would you like us to do mam?
You can't make this up. I lost track on how many times he said standby
Actually I am not ready, I'll have to wait two minutes.
No, I won't vacate, just standby.
Now I'm actually fully ready.
Standby, you interrupt my checklist
We are fully ready madam, stand by.
We are fully ready what would you like us to do mam?
You can't make this up. I lost track on how many times he said standby
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Ready for departure means all checks... COMPLETE.
Simple no?
Simple no?
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Storm in a teacup.If youre asked to line up and still not ready, then I'd say you have to give in.You can play for time once.Three times is a bit cheeky.
But the ATCO cant engage crew in a dispute prior departure.Thats a distraction at a critical time.Once it was obvious BA wasnt giving in,she should have shut up and when they were passing 500',she can say she will be filing a report and wish them a good day.
You can taxi slowly to the runway to give the cabin more time.ATC cant really order you to go faster than 10 knots.But once there,you have to be ready or get to the back of the queue if ordered.If its not busy,then no.
But the ATCO cant engage crew in a dispute prior departure.Thats a distraction at a critical time.Once it was obvious BA wasnt giving in,she should have shut up and when they were passing 500',she can say she will be filing a report and wish them a good day.
You can taxi slowly to the runway to give the cabin more time.ATC cant really order you to go faster than 10 knots.But once there,you have to be ready or get to the back of the queue if ordered.If its not busy,then no.
Wiggy:
So many of you guys seem to be totally Pavlovian when to comes to ATC. The buck stops on board, not with ATC. They can invite me to "line up", "take-off" or even "vacate" but I'm not doing any of the above until I'm sure it's safe to do so and I will not get involved in a debate with ATC if I'm handling something critical unless such debate is helpful to me. If that's arrogant so be it. There are umpteen reasons why you may genuinely be unable to either vacate or depart (I have no idea what the case was here)........perhaps the BA pilot should have used the magic word "unable"
So many of you guys seem to be totally Pavlovian when to comes to ATC. The buck stops on board, not with ATC. They can invite me to "line up", "take-off" or even "vacate" but I'm not doing any of the above until I'm sure it's safe to do so and I will not get involved in a debate with ATC if I'm handling something critical unless such debate is helpful to me. If that's arrogant so be it. There are umpteen reasons why you may genuinely be unable to either vacate or depart (I have no idea what the case was here)........perhaps the BA pilot should have used the magic word "unable"
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Except for aeroplanes that have a manufacturer's Before Take-off SOP and Checklist that cannot be completed until cleared to line-up.
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But that would not affect your actual readiness for departure! You accept the clearance, read the four or five points of the checklist, and blast off. This pilot's 'standby you interrupt my checklist' is utter nonsense.
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Then your ready call five minutes ago was even more inappropriate or if something just popped up you say: not ready, we have a technical problem, request to vacate the runway.
We all know how the game is played. We cut each other some slack, but we don't take the piss.
We all know how the game is played. We cut each other some slack, but we don't take the piss.
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There are a few here defending the indefensible. I have lost count of the number of times some pillock in a brightly painted 319 has done this to me at a London airport. ATC should have sent them back to stand and cancelled their plan. Frankly, I'd like the pilots arrested. If you knowingly line up without being ready, unless you have mentioned that to ATC specifically and they still line you up, then you should be stripped of you licence. It's one thing to have a problem as you line up - pax standing up, a tech fault or whatever, it happens, but to deliberately block a runway out of selfishness is as unprofessional as it gets. To then refuse to vacate when instructed should result in the pilots' prosecutions. Time to start pruning out the bad from our profession. Maybe they could lose a few pilots who don't bother with preflight checks and then fly over the entirety of London on a single burning engine before bringing the country's biggest, busiest airport to a stop instead of lobbing in somewhere more sensible. These events show the world BA have the same problems as every other company - shame it's only BA pilots that can't see it.
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Ive listened to recording five times now and changed my mind.The "standby" at 0:24 is not Nigel taking the piss or playing for time.Hes getting the cabin ready call right then.He announces fullly ready at 0:35 and is given line-up clearance.He can now do the 4 item checklist as he lines up but...the ATCO comes back at him instead of letting him line up in peace(hes said hes ready).The ATCO then takes his second "standby"(bit sarcastic)to mean that he isnt actually ready when what hes trying to say is "Im taking the active rwy,let me do my checks".
My verdict:over-zealous ATCO with a touch too much sarcasm from old Nigel.But its still a storm in a teacup and not worthy of further consideration.
My verdict:over-zealous ATCO with a touch too much sarcasm from old Nigel.But its still a storm in a teacup and not worthy of further consideration.
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Hi captain playstation,
There are 2 ways to line up runway 28 via runway 16 and E1, I'm not sure but what Ground do is ask you will you be ready at the holding point. If you are you taxi to E1 if not (lots of times wide bodies) the taxi you via runway 16, this keeps the traffic rolling. What I suggest happened is they first told ground they would be ready on reaching,then got to the holding point and blocked traffic behind them not being ready. They were then asked to enter runway 28 and vacate 34 bringing them in a circle to clear the holding back to the holding point. They did not do it at first then called ready and were cleared to line up and hold,and were not ready for take off again disobeying the instruction another 3 times. P.s. There is no room in that corner of the air friend for more entry points, as the rest is restricted ares for the ils 10 and 16.
There are 2 ways to line up runway 28 via runway 16 and E1, I'm not sure but what Ground do is ask you will you be ready at the holding point. If you are you taxi to E1 if not (lots of times wide bodies) the taxi you via runway 16, this keeps the traffic rolling. What I suggest happened is they first told ground they would be ready on reaching,then got to the holding point and blocked traffic behind them not being ready. They were then asked to enter runway 28 and vacate 34 bringing them in a circle to clear the holding back to the holding point. They did not do it at first then called ready and were cleared to line up and hold,and were not ready for take off again disobeying the instruction another 3 times. P.s. There is no room in that corner of the air friend for more entry points, as the rest is restricted ares for the ils 10 and 16.
Whe ready means ...er sort of...standby.....
I've listened to the tape a few time as well and I'm at a loss as to how anyone can defend the flight crew. Although I'm not suggesting a public flogging 
, I think they have cast BA in a poor light and I'm not anti BA. We all make mistakes and I think this was poor judgement pure and simple.
I (we) can only go on the tape that's been provided and so there may be a lot more to this incident but it sounds as if the BA was saying he was "ready" when patently he wasn't. I rolled my eyes when the pilot makes the "point of order" when everything I heard suggested he (they) wasn't ready. I agree with Penko's view and I'll admit to approaching the hold expecting to get a line up clearance and only received one at the last moment. He should have complied with ATC unless he had a valid reason for not doing so. Technical problem? If he had one he never declared it so how could the controller make an allowance for that.
Storm in a tea cup? If you think it's acceptable to ignore an ATC instruction, without a VALID reason, then please stay away from major international airports. I imagine the controller has filed a safety report after having her instructions wilfully (as far as we know) ignored. I'd be interested to know what the view from the BA pilot community is.
, I think they have cast BA in a poor light and I'm not anti BA. We all make mistakes and I think this was poor judgement pure and simple. I (we) can only go on the tape that's been provided and so there may be a lot more to this incident but it sounds as if the BA was saying he was "ready" when patently he wasn't. I rolled my eyes when the pilot makes the "point of order" when everything I heard suggested he (they) wasn't ready. I agree with Penko's view and I'll admit to approaching the hold expecting to get a line up clearance and only received one at the last moment. He should have complied with ATC unless he had a valid reason for not doing so. Technical problem? If he had one he never declared it so how could the controller make an allowance for that.
Storm in a tea cup? If you think it's acceptable to ignore an ATC instruction, without a VALID reason, then please stay away from major international airports. I imagine the controller has filed a safety report after having her instructions wilfully (as far as we know) ignored. I'd be interested to know what the view from the BA pilot community is.
Last edited by BBK; 4th Jan 2015 at 12:39. Reason: Typo
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I have listened to the original LiveATC archive (Dec 24, 1100-1130) in real time and have written out the timeline of comments below as they occur in the clip (min:sec). Note the almost 1.5 minutes between his first "Standby" and the controller's asking if he was ready. We missed the initial comment that promted this first "standby", but I wonder if it was the controller asking if he was ready. We may never know.
Look also at the 45 seconds that elapse between his saying he is fully ready and lines up on 28 and the next time he says he's "fully ready...but not finished the checklists". Almost 4 minutes pass before he finally ready to take off. In what country would that be deemed acceptable?
Look also at the 45 seconds that elapse between his saying he is fully ready and lines up on 28 and the next time he says he's "fully ready...but not finished the checklists". Almost 4 minutes pass before he finally ready to take off. In what country would that be deemed acceptable?
04:00 BA: "Standby"
...
05:22 ATC: "Speedbird845 there's traffic behind you waiting to depart, if you're not ready I'm going to bring you onto the runway to vacate off 34"
05:29 BA: Says they're waiting for the cabin to be ready, it takes about 2 minutes...
05:37 ATC: Orders him to enter 28 and turn off onto 34.
05:42 BA: "Standby"
05:48 ATC: Orders him again onto 28 and off onto 34, traffic behind waiting to depart.
05:54 BA: "Yeah, we just got a phonecall, standby".
...
06:05 BA: "We are fully ready"
06:08 ATC: "Line up 28 and wait"
06:11 BA: "Line up 28 and wait".
06:14 ATC: "And for future reference, etc. etc...."
06:28 BA: "Standby"
...
06:48 ATC: "Speedbird845, are you fully ready?"
06:50 BA: "Affirm...we are just doing the checks as you keep talking over us".
06:55 ATC: "OK, negative, turn right please onto runway 34, that's the 3rd time I've asked you to vacate onto R34. If you're not ready turn onto R34"
07:03 BA: "Madam we are fully ready, we're just trying to complete the checklists but you keep on interrupting us. Standby".
07:09 ATC: Negative, turn right onto 34, I've asked you three times now...."
...
other transmissions...
...
07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".
07:40 BA: "What would you like us to do now Madam?"
07:43 ATC: "As I said I will let you depart..." and clears him for takeoff
...
05:22 ATC: "Speedbird845 there's traffic behind you waiting to depart, if you're not ready I'm going to bring you onto the runway to vacate off 34"
05:29 BA: Says they're waiting for the cabin to be ready, it takes about 2 minutes...
05:37 ATC: Orders him to enter 28 and turn off onto 34.
05:42 BA: "Standby"
05:48 ATC: Orders him again onto 28 and off onto 34, traffic behind waiting to depart.
05:54 BA: "Yeah, we just got a phonecall, standby".
...
06:05 BA: "We are fully ready"
06:08 ATC: "Line up 28 and wait"
06:11 BA: "Line up 28 and wait".
06:14 ATC: "And for future reference, etc. etc...."
06:28 BA: "Standby"
...
06:48 ATC: "Speedbird845, are you fully ready?"
06:50 BA: "Affirm...we are just doing the checks as you keep talking over us".
06:55 ATC: "OK, negative, turn right please onto runway 34, that's the 3rd time I've asked you to vacate onto R34. If you're not ready turn onto R34"
07:03 BA: "Madam we are fully ready, we're just trying to complete the checklists but you keep on interrupting us. Standby".
07:09 ATC: Negative, turn right onto 34, I've asked you three times now...."
...
other transmissions...
...
07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".
07:40 BA: "What would you like us to do now Madam?"
07:43 ATC: "As I said I will let you depart..." and clears him for takeoff
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What part of ready do you not understand ?
Ready is like pregnant .......... You are or you are not, it is as simple as that.
If you don't understand the concept you should not be flying a jet airliner.
If you don't understand the concept you should not be flying a jet airliner.
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Ber Nooly,
strikes me (if your assumption regarding what prompted it is correct) that the response at 04:00 should have been "negative" , rather than "standby", it does sound increasingly like a degree of p1ss was taken here. . . .
strikes me (if your assumption regarding what prompted it is correct) that the response at 04:00 should have been "negative" , rather than "standby", it does sound increasingly like a degree of p1ss was taken here. . . .