China Airlines B747 Crash (Merged)
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Libya have a lot to gain financially through the lifting of sanctions which is the next step in the process for them now they have 'admitted' to the bombing.
I wonder how much it must have cost them over the years with the santions in place.
Trash Hauler
I wonder how much it must have cost them over the years with the santions in place.
Trash Hauler
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So, 1 year after the CI611 crash, you guys are still debating about what happened. This must be the longest thread ever on pprune. 
Don't you guys ever run out of breath?
Trash hauler:
Gaddafi always had a vast amount of oil reserves to play with and he's very active in the diamond trade, so I can't see how much the UN sanction had 'cost' him.
Libya, though, is a different story. He basically sucked the country dry.
Don't you guys ever run out of breath?
Trash hauler:
Gaddafi always had a vast amount of oil reserves to play with and he's very active in the diamond trade, so I can't see how much the UN sanction had 'cost' him.
Libya, though, is a different story. He basically sucked the country dry.
So, 1 year after the CI611 crash, you guys are still debating about what happened. This must be the longest thread ever on pprune
--alex
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Re Gadaffi and what he can gain: Having trade embargos lifted will greatly assist his country and therefore shore up his position and those of his immediate supporters within Libya. Having all the oil and diamonds is worth more if he can trade them freely.
Cheers
Cheers
Last edited by Trash Hauler; 8th Sep 2003 at 19:01.
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wiring/cargo door
>Don't you guys ever run out of breath?
Uh, no. But I am huffing and puffing.
For Air India Flight 182, Pan American World Airways Flight 103, United Airlines Flight 811, Trans World Airlines Flight 800 and possibly China Airlines Flight 611 the probable cause is the shorted wiring/ruptured open cargo door/explosive decompression/inflight breakup explanation. Details at www.corazon.com
Cheers,
John Barry Smith
541 Country Club Drive
Carmel Valley, California 93924
831 659 3552
[email protected]
http://www.corazon.com
Uh, no. But I am huffing and puffing.
For Air India Flight 182, Pan American World Airways Flight 103, United Airlines Flight 811, Trans World Airlines Flight 800 and possibly China Airlines Flight 611 the probable cause is the shorted wiring/ruptured open cargo door/explosive decompression/inflight breakup explanation. Details at www.corazon.com
Cheers,
John Barry Smith
541 Country Club Drive
Carmel Valley, California 93924
831 659 3552
[email protected]
http://www.corazon.com
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The New Taiwanese Law covering Post-Accident Cover-ups
I would imagine that this new Taiwanese Law is related to the cover-up over CI-611 (the temporary tail-strike repair being pencil-whipped into becoming the "permanent repair").......and the attempted cover-up of that during the ASC investigation.
See the portion in red below.
Cabinet considers new aviation law
By Ko Shu-ling
STAFF REPORTER
Monday, Oct 06, 2003
The government would pay for the investigation and salvage expenses of aircraft accidents involving commercial airlines, public aircraft and ultralights under a new law the Cabinet will consider this week.
The aviation accident investigation law would also impose fines on those refusing or failing to cooperate in the government's efforts to investigate aircraft accidents.Those providing false information or leaking investigation information would also be punished.
According to a Cabinet official who asked not to be named, the draft is designed to separate the supervision of the civil aviation industry from the investigation of aircraft accidents.
In addition to approving the draft aviation accident investigation law, the Cabinet is set to approve a draft amendment to Article 84 of the Civil Aviation Law on Wednesday during the weekly closed-door Cabinet meeting.
Under the draft aviation accident investigation law, the Aviation Safety Council would become the aviation safety investigation board. It would be responsible for investigating "aviation occurrences" involving commercial or public aircraft or ultralights other than an those operated by Taiwanese armed forces or intelligence agencies.
"Aviation occurrence" is defined as any accident or incident associated with the operation of an aircraft, and any situation or condition that the board has reasonable grounds to believe could, if left unattended, induce an accident or incident.
The draft also stipulates that the board must shoulder expenses related to the investigation of an aviation occurrence, salvage and transportation of the aviation data recording devices and wreckage of the aircraft. The board would also be empowered to request information, interviews or assistance from certain people or agencies.
Those refusing to provide information or providing false information would face a fine of between NT$600,000 and NT$3 million. The fine would continue to be issued until the party complied with demands for information.
Those dodging, refusing or providing false information during an interview would receive a fine of between NT$60,000 and NT$300,000. The fine would continue to be issued until the person complied.
While the aviation safety investigation board would be the sole party responsible for making public the investigation information, unauthorized personnel leaking information could face a fine of between NT$60,000 and NT$300,000.
Besides the aviation accident investigation law, the Cabinet is also set to approve the draft bill of the organic law of the aviation safety investigation board on Wednesday to elevate the legal status of the independent entity.
from this link
See the portion in red below.
Cabinet considers new aviation law
By Ko Shu-ling
STAFF REPORTER
Monday, Oct 06, 2003
The government would pay for the investigation and salvage expenses of aircraft accidents involving commercial airlines, public aircraft and ultralights under a new law the Cabinet will consider this week.
The aviation accident investigation law would also impose fines on those refusing or failing to cooperate in the government's efforts to investigate aircraft accidents.Those providing false information or leaking investigation information would also be punished.
According to a Cabinet official who asked not to be named, the draft is designed to separate the supervision of the civil aviation industry from the investigation of aircraft accidents.
In addition to approving the draft aviation accident investigation law, the Cabinet is set to approve a draft amendment to Article 84 of the Civil Aviation Law on Wednesday during the weekly closed-door Cabinet meeting.
Under the draft aviation accident investigation law, the Aviation Safety Council would become the aviation safety investigation board. It would be responsible for investigating "aviation occurrences" involving commercial or public aircraft or ultralights other than an those operated by Taiwanese armed forces or intelligence agencies.
"Aviation occurrence" is defined as any accident or incident associated with the operation of an aircraft, and any situation or condition that the board has reasonable grounds to believe could, if left unattended, induce an accident or incident.
The draft also stipulates that the board must shoulder expenses related to the investigation of an aviation occurrence, salvage and transportation of the aviation data recording devices and wreckage of the aircraft. The board would also be empowered to request information, interviews or assistance from certain people or agencies.
Those refusing to provide information or providing false information would face a fine of between NT$600,000 and NT$3 million. The fine would continue to be issued until the party complied with demands for information.
Those dodging, refusing or providing false information during an interview would receive a fine of between NT$60,000 and NT$300,000. The fine would continue to be issued until the person complied.
While the aviation safety investigation board would be the sole party responsible for making public the investigation information, unauthorized personnel leaking information could face a fine of between NT$60,000 and NT$300,000.
Besides the aviation accident investigation law, the Cabinet is also set to approve the draft bill of the organic law of the aviation safety investigation board on Wednesday to elevate the legal status of the independent entity.
from this link
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The (economic) developments for Libya are happenning quicker than I imagined previously. Great economic benifits come to Libya and Gadaffi for 'admitting' to Lockerbie.
Trash Hauler.
Trash Hauler.
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2002 747 incident report
China Airlines 747 crash report issued re Reuters .....
"February 25, 2005
A structural failure that was not properly repaired was the most probable cause of the 2002 crash of a China Airlines 747 that killed all 225 people on board, Taiwan investigators said on Friday.
After a near 3 year long investigation, Taiwan's Aviation Safety Council (ASC) issued its final report on Friday on the Boeing 747-200 that disintegrated in mid-air and crashed into the sea near Taiwan's Penghu islands on May 25, 2002.
The 23 year old aircraft had been on its way to Hong Kong and the crash was the Taiwan carrier's fourth fatal accident since 1994.
"A continuous crack of at least 71 inches (180 cm) in length, a crack length considered long enough to cause structural separation of the fuselage, was present before the inflight break-up of the aircraft," said the ASC in the report.
"The ASC concludes that the inflight break-up of the CI611, as it approached its cruising altitude, was highly likely due to the structural failure in the aft lower lobe of the fuselage."
The ASC said the crack on the back half of the fuselage was caused in a tail strike incident in 1980, and China Airlines had failed to repair the crack in accordance with Boeing's maintenance procedures.
It said the strength of a fuselage would be compromised with a continuous crack of 58 inches or longer.
"From the report it's clear the aircraft was poorly repaired and maintained and the negligence took away 225 human lives," said Victor Huang, whose wife was one of the plane's 19 crew.
"They should take responsibility. We deserve justice," said Huang, one of 92 relatives who have refused to settle with China Airlines, which offered each victim TWD$14.2 million (USD$455,000) in compensation.
Investigators also found poor communications between China Airlines and Boeing about how to repair the damage after the 1980 incident, and urged Boeing to take a more pro-active approach in its field service.
Metal fatigue cracks that penetrated the skin of the aircraft -- as well as signs of metal corrosion -- had been covered by a patch called a "repair doubler", which was added as reinforcement to the plane after its tail struck a runway in Hong Kong.
China Airlines said the available information was not conclusive enough to determine the exact cause of the accident and disagreed with part of the official finding.
"Now it seems the repair work might not be thorough, but that was the practice of many companies at that time. We did follow Boeing's procedures," said Roger Han, a spokesman for China Airlines.
The ASC said its finding was based on data collected from 1,500 pieces of wreckage, or about 75 percent of the whole structure recovered.
Since 1997, the aging plane had had a total of 29 delayed or overdue inspections, which were supposed to prevent corrosion or deterioration of parts, the report said.
"The aircraft had been operated with unresolved safety deficiencies from November 1997 onward," the ASC said.
The China airlines crash spurred the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require US airlines flying 747s to report if they had placed covers over repaired cracks or scratches on the underside of aircraft near the tail.
(Reuters)"
what can one say
.....
"February 25, 2005
A structural failure that was not properly repaired was the most probable cause of the 2002 crash of a China Airlines 747 that killed all 225 people on board, Taiwan investigators said on Friday.
After a near 3 year long investigation, Taiwan's Aviation Safety Council (ASC) issued its final report on Friday on the Boeing 747-200 that disintegrated in mid-air and crashed into the sea near Taiwan's Penghu islands on May 25, 2002.
The 23 year old aircraft had been on its way to Hong Kong and the crash was the Taiwan carrier's fourth fatal accident since 1994.
"A continuous crack of at least 71 inches (180 cm) in length, a crack length considered long enough to cause structural separation of the fuselage, was present before the inflight break-up of the aircraft," said the ASC in the report.
"The ASC concludes that the inflight break-up of the CI611, as it approached its cruising altitude, was highly likely due to the structural failure in the aft lower lobe of the fuselage."
The ASC said the crack on the back half of the fuselage was caused in a tail strike incident in 1980, and China Airlines had failed to repair the crack in accordance with Boeing's maintenance procedures.
It said the strength of a fuselage would be compromised with a continuous crack of 58 inches or longer.
"From the report it's clear the aircraft was poorly repaired and maintained and the negligence took away 225 human lives," said Victor Huang, whose wife was one of the plane's 19 crew.
"They should take responsibility. We deserve justice," said Huang, one of 92 relatives who have refused to settle with China Airlines, which offered each victim TWD$14.2 million (USD$455,000) in compensation.
Investigators also found poor communications between China Airlines and Boeing about how to repair the damage after the 1980 incident, and urged Boeing to take a more pro-active approach in its field service.
Metal fatigue cracks that penetrated the skin of the aircraft -- as well as signs of metal corrosion -- had been covered by a patch called a "repair doubler", which was added as reinforcement to the plane after its tail struck a runway in Hong Kong.
China Airlines said the available information was not conclusive enough to determine the exact cause of the accident and disagreed with part of the official finding.
"Now it seems the repair work might not be thorough, but that was the practice of many companies at that time. We did follow Boeing's procedures," said Roger Han, a spokesman for China Airlines.
The ASC said its finding was based on data collected from 1,500 pieces of wreckage, or about 75 percent of the whole structure recovered.
Since 1997, the aging plane had had a total of 29 delayed or overdue inspections, which were supposed to prevent corrosion or deterioration of parts, the report said.
"The aircraft had been operated with unresolved safety deficiencies from November 1997 onward," the ASC said.
The China airlines crash spurred the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require US airlines flying 747s to report if they had placed covers over repaired cracks or scratches on the underside of aircraft near the tail.
(Reuters)"
what can one say
.....
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As suspected by many at the time the aft pressure bulkhead failed. Poor souls!
The resulting litigation will, I am sure provide a salutary lesson to Boeing of their potential exposure.
The resulting litigation will, I am sure provide a salutary lesson to Boeing of their potential exposure.
TASC Executive Summary and Report Index
Not the fastest connection at 27Kb. The Report is 11Mb and the Appendices 25Mb.
Not the fastest connection at 27Kb. The Report is 11Mb and the Appendices 25Mb.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Spotlight: As suspected by many at the time the aft pressure bulkhead failed. Poor souls!
The resulting litigation will, I am sure provide a salutary lesson to Boeing of their potential exposure.
The resulting litigation will, I am sure provide a salutary lesson to Boeing of their potential exposure.
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Yep. JAL 123 all over again. That's deja vu for you.
May not have been a pressure bulkhead in CI611's case, but damage did result from a tailstrike, and a doubler was put in incorrectly. So much for "one in a billion".
May not have been a pressure bulkhead in CI611's case, but damage did result from a tailstrike, and a doubler was put in incorrectly. So much for "one in a billion".
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Come on, lets hold it all together!!!
The thing that really, really bugs me about this is that this has happened more than once as we all know - but the aircraft are still flying.
Concorde was a victim of a freak set of events - and it was grounded, would this happen to any Boeing aircraft NO! The FAA will keep them up there as it will have serious impact on America's economy.
Its all a disgrace to me, because this kind of thing will happen again - you just bet it will!!
The thing that really, really bugs me about this is that this has happened more than once as we all know - but the aircraft are still flying.
Concorde was a victim of a freak set of events - and it was grounded, would this happen to any Boeing aircraft NO! The FAA will keep them up there as it will have serious impact on America's economy.
Its all a disgrace to me, because this kind of thing will happen again - you just bet it will!!
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Oops. Just scanned the report. The crack in the fuselage under the doubler was in the pressurised area. Identical to JAL 123, therefore, except in the consequences of the failure.
Report recommendations include improving testing procedures for areas like this where no damage would be visible. Same rec as the Japanese after JAL 123. Plus ca change...
Report recommendations include improving testing procedures for areas like this where no damage would be visible. Same rec as the Japanese after JAL 123. Plus ca change...
I've spent considerable time going through the minutiae of the report. There are the usual lessons for the maintainers and managers as a temporary repair became "permanent".
Pilots doing walkarounds and finding old tailstrike repair doublers on pressurised structures may want to have a look at the pictures on page 185 of the report (perhaps somebody could host these photos). Description follows:
Pilots doing walkarounds and finding old tailstrike repair doublers on pressurised structures may want to have a look at the pictures on page 185 of the report (perhaps somebody could host these photos). Description follows:
2.2.5 RAP Preparation Data Collection during 6C Check
In November 2001, CAL performed a structure patch survey to collect the data for B-18255 RAP, and the following photo was taken as shown in Figures 2.2-5.
The photograph was taken from underneath the aircraft looking up towards the fuselage. This area of the aircraft belly slopes upward towards the rear of the aircraft. When the aircraft is parked, the forward end of the doubler is closer tothe ground then the aft end. There were several traces observed on the doublers and the skin around STA 2100. Traces 1, 2,and 3 are brown in color and straight toward the aft of the aircraft, suggesting that the traces were induced by the relative wind during flight. Trace 4 shows several curved lines of transparent condensate liquid that flowed from STA 2090 toward the forward (lower) end of the doubler, consistent with flow due to gravity when the aircraft was parked. The traces seen in the November 2001 photographs were not evident on the wreckage when it was recovered.
Traces 2 and 4 began at the same origin but went in different directions. It suggests that trace 2 occurred as the aircraft was in the air, but trace 4 occurred when the aircraft was on the ground. The darkness of the traces shows the accumulated time and quantity of the flow. The color of trace 2 is the darker, which suggests a larger quantity of flow escaped into the air stream in flight.
This phenomenon, discovered during the accident investigation upon examination of photographs of the 1980 repair doubler, showed that there was possibility hidden skin damage beneath the doubler in the vicinity of STA 2100, at the time when the photographs were taken.
In November 2001, CAL performed a structure patch survey to collect the data for B-18255 RAP, and the following photo was taken as shown in Figures 2.2-5.
The photograph was taken from underneath the aircraft looking up towards the fuselage. This area of the aircraft belly slopes upward towards the rear of the aircraft. When the aircraft is parked, the forward end of the doubler is closer tothe ground then the aft end. There were several traces observed on the doublers and the skin around STA 2100. Traces 1, 2,and 3 are brown in color and straight toward the aft of the aircraft, suggesting that the traces were induced by the relative wind during flight. Trace 4 shows several curved lines of transparent condensate liquid that flowed from STA 2090 toward the forward (lower) end of the doubler, consistent with flow due to gravity when the aircraft was parked. The traces seen in the November 2001 photographs were not evident on the wreckage when it was recovered.
Traces 2 and 4 began at the same origin but went in different directions. It suggests that trace 2 occurred as the aircraft was in the air, but trace 4 occurred when the aircraft was on the ground. The darkness of the traces shows the accumulated time and quantity of the flow. The color of trace 2 is the darker, which suggests a larger quantity of flow escaped into the air stream in flight.
This phenomenon, discovered during the accident investigation upon examination of photographs of the 1980 repair doubler, showed that there was possibility hidden skin damage beneath the doubler in the vicinity of STA 2100, at the time when the photographs were taken.
