Video of KLM B747 go-around at CUR

[JonF]

Thanks for the explanation, I thought the TOGA was due to hard landing, hence the question, it didn't really occur to me that the hard 'landing' could have occurred after the TOGA was initiated, but now it all makes more sense.

Anyway must dash, butties to eat and anoraks to wear

[PURPLE PITOT]

You would not initiate a GA for a hard landing. If there is any chance of the aircraft being damaged, you would not want to take it back into the air. The only reason for a GA after touch down would be a suddenly blocked runway.This has happened on a handfull of occasions, and at least one did not end well.( seriously difficult situation for the crew if it happens)

If you initiate a GA below 50/100 ft, there is a high probability that the aircraft will touch before it goes up, even from a stable 3 degree approach. Add windshear /turbulence to the equation, that probability increases. As i said, pure speculation, but that is probably what happened here.

[Airclues]

If every time an aircraft bounced on landing it was inevitably followed by a series of increasingly harder runway contacts, as you seem to suggest, then most large airports would see dozens of GAs every day.

DaveReidUK

I was not commenting on any other bounced landing.From my 747 experience I was commenting on this particular landing as can be judged by the video. I have seen hundreds of bounced landings with a happy outcome, but in my personal opinion this would not have happened in this case.

Airclues

[DaveReidUK]

I have seen hundreds of bounced landings with a happy outcome, but in my personal opinion this would not have happened in this case.

Fair enough - we'll never know for sure what the outcome would have been had the landing been completed, so there's not much point in trading hypotheses. Clearly the pilot judged it prudent to go around, so we can't argue with that.

[spottilludrop]

TBH, Dave how any one who is not a commercial pilot can even begin to think they are qualified to offer a valid opinion on the competence of a pilot is quite beyond me.

[Phileas Fogg]

"a go-around immediately after the main landing gear touches the runway"

Excuse me for stating the obvious but how can it be a "go around" if the undercarriage has made contact with the runway?

I'd suggest that is a "touch and go" or whatever they may refer to it as in that particular durisdiction!

[lurkio]

Go around seems perfectly fine as in Go Around and have another try. It doesn't mean it cannot touch down in the meantime.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Look closer. It did not bounce then go. Steady rotation into the go around which resulted in a touch (rape would be a more accurate phrase!)

Edited to add its my eyesight thats faulty, ground spoilers do deploy. I is a bouncer.
I was referring to a hard landing, not a bounce, in which case you are of course correct.

[Alt Crz Green]

The only reason for a GA after touch down would be a suddenly blocked runway.

Gotta disagree there. A bounce after touchdown may lead to a decision to GA after the initial gear contact.
As far as I can see, this was a bounce then GA. The spoilers have deployed at touchdown and, assuming the 747 logic is the same as the Airbus, this would mean TOGA wasn't pressed until after the bounce.
Textbook stuff it appears to me: bounce, press TOGA, hold the pitch attitude until clear of terra firma and away they go.
Anyway, a fine job by the crew, why are we even discussing this anyway?

[walterthesofty]

Because the forums popular with people who play at being pilots on their computers and that in their minds makes them authorities on every facet, of aviation The fact they have in all probability never been near a flight deck of a real aircraft is irrelevant

[Airclues]

walterthesoftly

Surely that is the whole point of this forum?

If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

1stspotter asked a perfectly reasonable question and received a variety of replies from the 'experts'. Even experienced pilots don't always agree, but, hopefully, respect each others views.

[donnlass]

Just looked again, the ground spoilers did not start to deploy, and the rotation rate was that of a planned go around. Definately made before touchdown. Probably due to high rate of descent/windshear, but i wasn't on the stick that day, so pure speculation.

If that was the case and they didnt have the spoilers armed then why go all the way to touchdown before going around?


Wouldnt it be more effective just to do a normal GA?

[Alt Crz Green]

If that was the case and they didnt have the spoilers armed then why go all the way to touchdown before going around?

The spoilers did deploy, meaning they were armed. They will retract again according to certain conditions (on the Airbus, moving any thrust lever above 20deg, I assume something similar on the 747) - i.e. initiating a GA. The fact that the spoilers did deploy means that the thrust levers were at, or near, idle at touchdown, indicating the GA was not initiated until after touchdown and bounce.

Wouldnt it be more effective just to do a normal GA?

They did do a normal GA. Select TOGA, hold the pitch attitude til clear of the ground and fly away. Bounces can happen, perfectly normal. This crew demonstrated textbook decision making and baulked landing technique.

[Phileas Fogg]

Walter The Know It All,

I don't pretend to be a pilot nor have I ever wanted to be a pilot however from aged 18, some 36 years ago, I worked in air traffic control and when the wheels of an aircraft, from an airborne position, make contact with a runway surface then that is considered a "landing".

A "go around" is "overshooting" before making contact with the runway surface, air traffic control determine what is a landing and what is not and with all due respect to the professional pilots and their SOP's around these parts ... if the tyres make contact with the runway surface then that is a "landing".

[Cough]

We call it a baulked landing. If you look at bounced landings, the ones that continue to a full stop suffer a much higher incident rate than ones which G/A. The crew made an instant and correct (in my opinion) decision.

[donnlass]

The spoilers did deploy, meaning they were armed. They will retract again according to certain conditions (on the Airbus, moving any thrust lever above 20deg, I assume something similar on the 747) - i.e. initiating a GA. The fact that the spoilers did deploy means that the thrust levers were at, or near, idle at touchdown, indicating the GA was not initiated until after touchdown and bounce.


They did do a normal GA. Select TOGA, hold the pitch attitude til clear of the ground and fly away. Bounces can happen, perfectly normal. This crew demonstrated textbook decision making and baulked landing technique.

Thanks for that

Well handled quick thinking from the pilots.

Shame that video was blacked out, KLM should have been proud of their pilots not hiding their actions away.

[Alt Crz Green]

I worked in air traffic control and when the wheels of an aircraft, from an airborne position, make contact with a runway surface then that is considered a "landing".

Maybe so from an ATCO point of view, but not necessarily so from the cockpit. A GA initiated prior to touchdown may lead to ground contact prior to climbing away. We would not consider this a landing.

[the_stranger]

Indeed, in the airplane I fly, the books sort of say at soon as you use reverse, it is a (crash)landing, anything before that can be turned into a touch and go, or a go-around (with possible ground contact).