COULD you land a passenger jet (if you ONLY hold a PPL)???
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If you want to amuse yourself in a few years time. I suggest you save this thread. If the path you have chosen for your self is as an airline pilot.
Then when you can land a 737 for real autoland or manually. You will look back and see the naive 19 year old that you are coming across as.
Obviously there will be exceptionally gifted people who could pull off what you surmise in your original post. Odds are that your not.
Sorry if this comes across as condescending but you asked a question and some very experienced airline pilots answered you. Why ask a question if you don't hear the answer.
Then when you can land a 737 for real autoland or manually. You will look back and see the naive 19 year old that you are coming across as.
Obviously there will be exceptionally gifted people who could pull off what you surmise in your original post. Odds are that your not.
Sorry if this comes across as condescending but you asked a question and some very experienced airline pilots answered you. Why ask a question if you don't hear the answer.
Been interesting reading. I think it is well understood by all that an uncoupled landing would probably be disastrous for anyone other than an experienced ATP with time on type or similar. What about the other scenario.. Autoland.
I am not a pilot but an experienced Tech with fight mech time and solid avionics knowledge, as stated above know by way around many Airbus, Boeing, MDC, Bombardier etc cockpits. I have a deep knowledge of how nav aids and navigation equipment, autopilots, aircraft systems etc.
I would not feel comfortable alone in the cockpit of any aircraft, I would feel much better with another tech or person with a PPL to assist with radios, flaps etc.
First off all flight crew are incapacitated, I would secure the aircraft in stable level flight.
Hopefully there are charts or an EFB up with comm frequencies but would not waste too much time selecting guard. I understand baro settings std above 18k and speed limit to 250 kts below 10k (terrain would come to mind) If up in coffin's corner I would take care to carefully descend to a more forgiving altitude . By now I should have vectors and altitude req from ATC.
Hopefully the landing approach speeds have been established for me, I could see myself stumbling a bit here if I did not have familar charts or a program to obtain them. The other option would be ATC contacting company for someone to coach me on this. Phew, unless the person assisting could do this for me, it would surely be allot of work. But hey hopefully he could be monitoring the aircraft understand FMA etc.
Largest problem I see here is a lack of continuity as there is no clear PM or PF, may be some argument over this issue.
Ok weather and speed in descent, 2 more issues. I could clearly manage both of these but does PM know what the hell he is doing?
The weather is clear there are no terrain issues , I would request a very long straight in vector at say 3,000 feet agl 30-40 miles out, to ensure the aircraft is configured for landing. Hopefully the extra fuel burn is not an issue!?! STAR for landing airport selected in the FMS, or vectors and manual tuning. Flaps set, speed set, speedbrake armed, autobrakes armed (hopefully there is a checklist handy) gear down. From here on out it should not be much more than possibly one more level change monitoring DME, selecting land (hopefully it is similar to an autopilot I know well), monitoring the FMA and ILS raw data to insure all phases of approach and land modes latch. Oh and do something most pilots forget to on a 3B approach (verify with the tower the runway is protected) for a nice smooth rollout.
This would scare the **** out of me under optimal circumstances but I too believe a PPL would be completely lost. I know of many avionics tech's that have performed flawless autolands in a SIM. We can not fix this stuff without having intimate knowledge of how it works. Hell I have seen many of you professional pilots who could not find the correct hole to plug your headset into transitioning from one aircraft to another, plenty of other blunders and "pilot error" discrepancies get passed through my hands quite often. Just about always attributed to unfamiliarity and our pilots get top notch training.
I am not a pilot but an experienced Tech with fight mech time and solid avionics knowledge, as stated above know by way around many Airbus, Boeing, MDC, Bombardier etc cockpits. I have a deep knowledge of how nav aids and navigation equipment, autopilots, aircraft systems etc.
I would not feel comfortable alone in the cockpit of any aircraft, I would feel much better with another tech or person with a PPL to assist with radios, flaps etc.
First off all flight crew are incapacitated, I would secure the aircraft in stable level flight.
Hopefully there are charts or an EFB up with comm frequencies but would not waste too much time selecting guard. I understand baro settings std above 18k and speed limit to 250 kts below 10k (terrain would come to mind) If up in coffin's corner I would take care to carefully descend to a more forgiving altitude . By now I should have vectors and altitude req from ATC.
Hopefully the landing approach speeds have been established for me, I could see myself stumbling a bit here if I did not have familar charts or a program to obtain them. The other option would be ATC contacting company for someone to coach me on this. Phew, unless the person assisting could do this for me, it would surely be allot of work. But hey hopefully he could be monitoring the aircraft understand FMA etc.
Largest problem I see here is a lack of continuity as there is no clear PM or PF, may be some argument over this issue.
Ok weather and speed in descent, 2 more issues. I could clearly manage both of these but does PM know what the hell he is doing?
The weather is clear there are no terrain issues , I would request a very long straight in vector at say 3,000 feet agl 30-40 miles out, to ensure the aircraft is configured for landing. Hopefully the extra fuel burn is not an issue!?! STAR for landing airport selected in the FMS, or vectors and manual tuning. Flaps set, speed set, speedbrake armed, autobrakes armed (hopefully there is a checklist handy) gear down. From here on out it should not be much more than possibly one more level change monitoring DME, selecting land (hopefully it is similar to an autopilot I know well), monitoring the FMA and ILS raw data to insure all phases of approach and land modes latch. Oh and do something most pilots forget to on a 3B approach (verify with the tower the runway is protected) for a nice smooth rollout.
This would scare the **** out of me under optimal circumstances but I too believe a PPL would be completely lost. I know of many avionics tech's that have performed flawless autolands in a SIM. We can not fix this stuff without having intimate knowledge of how it works. Hell I have seen many of you professional pilots who could not find the correct hole to plug your headset into transitioning from one aircraft to another, plenty of other blunders and "pilot error" discrepancies get passed through my hands quite often. Just about always attributed to unfamiliarity and our pilots get top notch training.
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This is the daftest thread ever. As SLF and MSFS pilot I haven't got a clue whether it would be possible or not but as somebody with a modicum of intelligence, excellent listening skills and SOME common sense, plus knowing that someone also wins the lottery every week at odds of millions to one so it might be my (very) lucky day what's the alternative to the attempt?. Plus, let me put it this way ... there's nobody else to land the thing, I might as well give it a go and HOPE I wouldn't die - as opposed to thinking ... 'ah well, they all said it couldn't be done so I might as well just sit here and wait for this thing to hit the ground ... very, very hard ...
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Since "Snakes on a plane" it should be common knowledge that one doesn't even need a PPL to successfully land a 747 
.
Seriously, being a PPL holder and MSFS aficionado as well (and having thought and read about this scenario, obviously), I'd say: "Autoland in the most favorable of circumstances with a bit of luck: maybe. Trying a manual landing in the most favorable of circumstances with a bit of luck: outcome probably similar to UA 232.
To quote a previous poster: instead of sitting there and waiting for this thing to hit the ground (anywhere) very, very hard, a PPL/MSFS person trying a manual landing might succeed at hitting the ground at an airport very, very hard, which at least has the advantage of emergency crews ready and waiting.
.Seriously, being a PPL holder and MSFS aficionado as well (and having thought and read about this scenario, obviously), I'd say: "Autoland in the most favorable of circumstances with a bit of luck: maybe. Trying a manual landing in the most favorable of circumstances with a bit of luck: outcome probably similar to UA 232.
To quote a previous poster: instead of sitting there and waiting for this thing to hit the ground (anywhere) very, very hard, a PPL/MSFS person trying a manual landing might succeed at hitting the ground at an airport very, very hard, which at least has the advantage of emergency crews ready and waiting.
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Mythbusters, I have been on several landings (freighters) where the PF has banked to or near 45 deg to make a last minute "clear to land" landing.. In the dreaded MD-11... Stupid, but I am here to tell.
There is nothing like that view of the ground with that big L3 window of a Md-11. Shut up and tighten the harness is all I could do.
There is nothing like that view of the ground with that big L3 window of a Md-11. Shut up and tighten the harness is all I could do.
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Once had a similar conversation with a friend who is a check and training captain on Dash-8's. He reckoned he would be able to talk me through it to get it down in one piece, even more so if there was a chase plane alongside. Dash-8 though, not a 737!
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As a current 737 pilot, I have found this a interesting read.
If it is possible for a PPL holder to manually fly a Jet aircraft, why oh why do we use the autopilot and autothrottle most of the time, even on approach.
Amongst all of this there have been stories of pilots landing in extreme situations, but no mention of Helios Flight 522. Andreas Prodromou, the flight attendent who gained access to the flight deck, had a UK issued CPL, unfortunately it did not help at all.
Saying I can manually handle a 737 is all and good, but what happens on the glide when you get a bit high, do you take the power off, if so how much, then what will happen to your pitch. When do you drop the gear and set landing flaps, what will that do to your pitch and power settings.
If my flight suffered a Pilot Incapacitation, I would choose to use Autoland where ever possible. BA used to have that in their QRH, they may still do.
When you learn to fly a Boeing and I am sure most other jets, you are given a set of pitch and power settings, these are ballpark numbers intended to help you.
Bearcat, if you are so interested, I would book a hour in a 737 sim and during that time, ask to fly a profile or two unassisted. Lets see how you do then.
If it is possible for a PPL holder to manually fly a Jet aircraft, why oh why do we use the autopilot and autothrottle most of the time, even on approach.
Amongst all of this there have been stories of pilots landing in extreme situations, but no mention of Helios Flight 522. Andreas Prodromou, the flight attendent who gained access to the flight deck, had a UK issued CPL, unfortunately it did not help at all.
Saying I can manually handle a 737 is all and good, but what happens on the glide when you get a bit high, do you take the power off, if so how much, then what will happen to your pitch. When do you drop the gear and set landing flaps, what will that do to your pitch and power settings.
If my flight suffered a Pilot Incapacitation, I would choose to use Autoland where ever possible. BA used to have that in their QRH, they may still do.
When you learn to fly a Boeing and I am sure most other jets, you are given a set of pitch and power settings, these are ballpark numbers intended to help you.
Bearcat, if you are so interested, I would book a hour in a 737 sim and during that time, ask to fly a profile or two unassisted. Lets see how you do then.
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With respect to Mr. Prodromou, I gather his time in the Captain's seat was extremely limited before it ran out of fuel? Perhaps with more time he may have been able to manage better, although, of course, there was no-one alive to assist him in any way on board the aircraft. I do, however, agree with your views.
Ford Cortina.
Wrote you a long reply, but reconsidered.
Using auto lets you do everything else better. You only need to keep half an eye on it to make sure it's doing what it should.
At a tender age, I didn't actually know that (oddly - given the parentage) so went manual.
And I'll repeat what I said earlier. I landed a TriStar heavily, in vmc, with probably no wind at all, but successfully. Once.
The second time was not good. At all.
Wrote you a long reply, but reconsidered.
Using auto lets you do everything else better. You only need to keep half an eye on it to make sure it's doing what it should.
At a tender age, I didn't actually know that (oddly - given the parentage) so went manual.
And I'll repeat what I said earlier. I landed a TriStar heavily, in vmc, with probably no wind at all, but successfully. Once.
The second time was not good. At all.
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Hey guys, I am not keen on restarting the arguing here, but for all of you airline pilots who are so keen on this being an impossibility for a PPL holder, here's some food for thought... I just found a vid of a PPL holder landing an EMB-190... it was combination of help from ground/ A/P and manual flying:
I suppose that some of you now will say that either the sim was "dumbed down" or perhaps the PPL holder was a much more experienced pilot, or something or other... please restrain yourself from all this guesswork. Sure, this might be fake, but maybe it's not.
Also spoke to another friend who said he landed perfectly in a 747 full motion sim during his MCC training without having any previous jet experience... although he did have some experience on King Airs... not sure exactly how much that could've helped.
I suppose that some of you now will say that either the sim was "dumbed down" or perhaps the PPL holder was a much more experienced pilot, or something or other... please restrain yourself from all this guesswork. Sure, this might be fake, but maybe it's not.
Also spoke to another friend who said he landed perfectly in a 747 full motion sim during his MCC training without having any previous jet experience... although he did have some experience on King Airs... not sure exactly how much that could've helped.
Let's be honest - which aviation enthusiast who flies on some sim haven't thought about taking over an airliner in case of an emergency? Remember Castle/Haley Flight into danger from 1958? That was a classic.
But anyone who would face such a fate would better dream of a survivable landing crash rather than anything else.
But anyone who would face such a fate would better dream of a survivable landing crash rather than anything else.
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Whenever this topic comes up I always think about my first goes flying, takeoff, landing, navigation, all under the watchful eye of an instructor, and how long before they took over your hashed first attempts to try a manoeuvre all by yourself ?
That feeling of relief as an experienced hand sorted out your mistake and let you try it again. The feeling of safety when you descend on final and something unexpected happens "I have control"
Yeah, now imagine doing all that by yourself. With something 5x faster and 50x heavier, and no going back. You have no chance. With automatics, help on the ground and properly tuned radios, possibly. Hand flying it for the first time? No chance.
That feeling of relief as an experienced hand sorted out your mistake and let you try it again. The feeling of safety when you descend on final and something unexpected happens "I have control"
Yeah, now imagine doing all that by yourself. With something 5x faster and 50x heavier, and no going back. You have no chance. With automatics, help on the ground and properly tuned radios, possibly. Hand flying it for the first time? No chance.
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A number of years back when it was located in my home patch I "landed" (or should that be crashed with style?) the BMI 737 simulator on the grass at Dublin. I can safely say that I'm either totally useless or it's pretty difficult - even with someone telling you what to do sitting by your side!
The same guy then took me on a trip to somewhere in Japan (I think) and proceeded to fly the thing through an open hangar door and out the other side which kind of put my efforts into context!
The same guy then took me on a trip to somewhere in Japan (I think) and proceeded to fly the thing through an open hangar door and out the other side which kind of put my efforts into context!
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Whenever this topic comes up I always think about my first goes flying, takeoff, landing, navigation, all under the watchful eye of an instructor, and how long before they took over your hashed first attempts to try a manoeuvre all by yourself ?
That feeling of relief as an experienced hand sorted out your mistake and let you try it again. The feeling of safety when you descend on final and something unexpected happens "I have control"
Yeah, now imagine doing all that by yourself. With something 5x faster and 50x heavier, and no going back. You have no chance. With automatics, help on the ground and properly tuned radios, possibly. Hand flying it for the first time? No chance.
That feeling of relief as an experienced hand sorted out your mistake and let you try it again. The feeling of safety when you descend on final and something unexpected happens "I have control"
Yeah, now imagine doing all that by yourself. With something 5x faster and 50x heavier, and no going back. You have no chance. With automatics, help on the ground and properly tuned radios, possibly. Hand flying it for the first time? No chance.
So in the case of the PPL landing an airliner we would have to have a candidate who is a rather quick learner and a natural.
If the guy in the vid that I posted is really just a SEP IR pilot then he did a rather good job at landing that 190!
I would not put too much faith in what they say in that programme. It was supposedly made by people who claim to know what they are talking about - but when they say two F-16s are being scrambled they show two F-18s!
How much else in the video is not accurate?
How much else in the video is not accurate?
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Yeah it was a bit dumb with the whole fighter jet scrambling thing... it shouldn't be like that. Although if you watch the rest of their stuff they do know what they are talking about with regards to aviation. So yeah there's really no way of knowing if that was all 1 take or they did the shoot over some time...
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No PPL.
Only "REAL" Aircraft ever flown were controlled from the ground using a set of thumbs. :-)
First time in A300 Cockpit
First time into LPMA
No briefing, no coaching.
Lots of noobs there that day.
Some could do it right away, some not even after multilple tries.
Any PPL holder that can not land one of these on a nice day without other distractions from a straight approach should look for another hobby.
Only talking about simulators of course.
I have no idea how a try in a real plane would end up.
Would go for it though ...
Regards
This topic reappears every few years, the outcome is always the same with som PPL guy confident in his ability to save 450 pax in a 744 and the airline pilots saying that it is more likely to end up in a fireball.
The longest of these discussin was about 8 years ago and I seem to remember the final conclusion was that if the PPL keeps the autopilot in and follows instructions very carefully, then there's a chance. The overconfident one may decided to try his luck and disconnect, find he can't do it, try to re-engage the automatics and then get it wrong having put themself in a worse position. As an experiment, from this discussion, I put my (then) 11 year old son in front of a PC sim we used to use for 744 training and talked him through an apporach and landing from the cruise. He could do it - but it was a PC sim without the distractions of being in real cockpit.
I have had experience of putting non airline pilots in a sim for them to have a go. My experience is that most, after a couple of attempts can land it (with the crash inhibit on!). This can be resolved on the first approach by leaving the autoland in. As most airliners defualt to autoland anyway, there should be no problem, but if there is, driving it in at 7-800' a minute won't do much damage as the airframes have been designed to cope with this. The problem these guys have is getting it into the situation where a reasonably stable approach can be made. They generally don't have the experience or skill to slow it down and get it into a position, being configured on finals to do the job.
As for the sims available for public use, there's two 737 sims near where I live and they are rum by PCs and don't have motion. I've used them on a few occasions - thye are impressive for what they are, but nothing more than a toy. They won't give handling feed back and not having flown the 737, I can't comment on their accuracy, but I suspect they are close, but as they aren't certified for pilot training, not close enough.
The longest of these discussin was about 8 years ago and I seem to remember the final conclusion was that if the PPL keeps the autopilot in and follows instructions very carefully, then there's a chance. The overconfident one may decided to try his luck and disconnect, find he can't do it, try to re-engage the automatics and then get it wrong having put themself in a worse position. As an experiment, from this discussion, I put my (then) 11 year old son in front of a PC sim we used to use for 744 training and talked him through an apporach and landing from the cruise. He could do it - but it was a PC sim without the distractions of being in real cockpit.
I have had experience of putting non airline pilots in a sim for them to have a go. My experience is that most, after a couple of attempts can land it (with the crash inhibit on!). This can be resolved on the first approach by leaving the autoland in. As most airliners defualt to autoland anyway, there should be no problem, but if there is, driving it in at 7-800' a minute won't do much damage as the airframes have been designed to cope with this. The problem these guys have is getting it into the situation where a reasonably stable approach can be made. They generally don't have the experience or skill to slow it down and get it into a position, being configured on finals to do the job.
As for the sims available for public use, there's two 737 sims near where I live and they are rum by PCs and don't have motion. I've used them on a few occasions - thye are impressive for what they are, but nothing more than a toy. They won't give handling feed back and not having flown the 737, I can't comment on their accuracy, but I suspect they are close, but as they aren't certified for pilot training, not close enough.
I have done it in a simulator but...
I got one hour in a 737 flight simulator for a birthday present. I think I landed OK, but don't really know how much input the guy in the right hand seat was giving (a lot, I suspect). I do recall that when asked to change course 
I did fly a hang glider for a few years without hurting anybody, but except for close attention to the vario and occasional glances at altimeter I did not use instruments at all. (It all goes ominously quiet when you are about to stall....)
- to a specified bearing
- while maintaining altitude
- and not more than 25 degree bank
I did fly a hang glider for a few years without hurting anybody, but except for close attention to the vario and occasional glances at altimeter I did not use instruments at all. (It all goes ominously quiet when you are about to stall....)
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To put in 2 cents from a different direction: I am an avid sailor. I also have had a few hours at the controls of a glider and a single engine aircraft, and many hours at (home level) simulators. I have some kind of background in physics and aero/hydrodynamics.
Yes, I can land a small single engine aircraft. Maybe with a bit of coaching from the other seat. And I know, in principle, that a big aircraft is physically not fundamentally different.
However, I very much doubt I could do any good at the controls of such a big jet. And this view does *not* come from my experience with small planes, or the sims, but from sailing.
Entering a berth with a yacht (say 30 feet & above) is not that easy. I have had my own classic boat now for 12 years, and in unfavourable conditions, I'll still sport a 180 bpm pulse, and have botched a few approaches. Of course, this does not compare to landing - on the boat, the worst that can happen is the equivalent to a fender bender. Still.
Sitting in the harbour, one of the most entertaining things is the so called 'harbour cinema' - mainly charter or otherwise inexperienced sailors trying to get berthed, and observing their blunders and mishaps. (Don't worry, I'm one of the first to jump on the jetty and lend a hand!)
The lession this taught me is that unless one is profoundly familiar with a) the craft, b) the settings (harbour/airport), and the conditions (wind!!), the chances for mistakes are *huge*. How can I assume I could pilot a big jet safely to the ground when I don't even manage at all times with my very familiar sailboat? Or would I attempt to guide a supertanker through the panama locks just based on my small craft experience?
Definitely no.
Likewise, getting back to the OP's question - in that situation, would I attempt to put down the plane in one piece? Even without a PPL? Hell, yes. But I'm not delusive - I guess my chances would be very,very slim. But at least I'd go down fighting!
Yes, I can land a small single engine aircraft. Maybe with a bit of coaching from the other seat. And I know, in principle, that a big aircraft is physically not fundamentally different.
However, I very much doubt I could do any good at the controls of such a big jet. And this view does *not* come from my experience with small planes, or the sims, but from sailing.
Entering a berth with a yacht (say 30 feet & above) is not that easy. I have had my own classic boat now for 12 years, and in unfavourable conditions, I'll still sport a 180 bpm pulse, and have botched a few approaches. Of course, this does not compare to landing - on the boat, the worst that can happen is the equivalent to a fender bender. Still.
Sitting in the harbour, one of the most entertaining things is the so called 'harbour cinema' - mainly charter or otherwise inexperienced sailors trying to get berthed, and observing their blunders and mishaps. (Don't worry, I'm one of the first to jump on the jetty and lend a hand!)
The lession this taught me is that unless one is profoundly familiar with a) the craft, b) the settings (harbour/airport), and the conditions (wind!!), the chances for mistakes are *huge*. How can I assume I could pilot a big jet safely to the ground when I don't even manage at all times with my very familiar sailboat? Or would I attempt to guide a supertanker through the panama locks just based on my small craft experience?
Definitely no.
Likewise, getting back to the OP's question - in that situation, would I attempt to put down the plane in one piece? Even without a PPL? Hell, yes. But I'm not delusive - I guess my chances would be very,very slim. But at least I'd go down fighting!
