Electronic Flight Bags
Electronic Flight Bags
I see that an EFB based on the iPad has been approved for use. If I am a passenger and turn on an iPad during take off or landing I'm being a naughty boy. So why is it acceptable for an iPad to be used as an EFB?
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EFBs (specifically class 1 and 2) are considered PEDs and must be secured for take-off and landing. That means either stowed or placed in approved mountings.
An approval is operator specific, not a general one. Additionally, procedures for their use will have been developed and crews trained accordingly.
Did that answer you question?
An approval is operator specific, not a general one. Additionally, procedures for their use will have been developed and crews trained accordingly.
Did that answer you question?
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Hartington,
The short answer is that restrictions to electronic devices don't apply to approved equipment. When an electronic flight bag is installed in the airplane, it's been thoroughly tested for function and interference. A dedicated approval is given to the individual operator, for each specific airplane.
We use EFB's, though not Ipads. Approval took about two years and was not a simple affair. The FAA looked at utility, reliability, safety, interference, redundancy, effectiveness, and so on, and did a very thorough evaluation of the individual units, and their application and use in the airplane. Each unit was tracked by serial number and tested and tried. The approval is for use in the cockpit. We don't carry them around the airplane with us.
Personal electronics have potential interference issues with avionics and navigation equipment. Hundreds of cases have been recorded and reported of electronic interference. Shutting down and securing your unapproved and untested equipment when asked is important for your safety and mine.
We have a lot of electronic equipment in the cockpit, from instrument displays to navigation radios. We have radar, communication equipment, electrically heated windows, and various power sources, converters, inverters, rectifiers, and so forth. Everything in the cockpit has been installed, tested, and designed to function together. We know what to expect. Even the magnetic compass is tested and calibrated with the equipment operating so we know the effect that all the installed equipment will have.
When I sit down in the cockpit, I have to turn off my personal electronic equipment, too. The cell phone goes off. I use an electronic noise cancelling headset, but it's approved equipment in compliance with a technical standard order (TSO). When you're asked to turn off your cell phone and power down your equipment in the passenger section of the airplane, it's for good cause and you're in good company; pilots do the same thing, except for approved, necessary, and compatible equipment.
You're asked to keep your equipment off until we get above 10,000', when you're often told you can turn your equipment on. During that time, climbing to 10,000 or descending below that altitude, we have our own restrictions in the cockpit. We don't even engage in non-essential conversation; instead we maintain a "sterile cockpit." Safety rules are for everyone. They're applied a little differrently. You can talk in business class or coach, for example, whereas we are focused on the business of getting you somewhere safely. We don't talk. We can use an approved electronic device which is instaled in the airplane and tested and authorized for that installation, whereas you don't have that capability or permission during critical phases of flight. We all do our part. Consider keeping the electronics off to be doing yours, and we do appreciate your helping out.
The short answer is that restrictions to electronic devices don't apply to approved equipment. When an electronic flight bag is installed in the airplane, it's been thoroughly tested for function and interference. A dedicated approval is given to the individual operator, for each specific airplane.
We use EFB's, though not Ipads. Approval took about two years and was not a simple affair. The FAA looked at utility, reliability, safety, interference, redundancy, effectiveness, and so on, and did a very thorough evaluation of the individual units, and their application and use in the airplane. Each unit was tracked by serial number and tested and tried. The approval is for use in the cockpit. We don't carry them around the airplane with us.
Personal electronics have potential interference issues with avionics and navigation equipment. Hundreds of cases have been recorded and reported of electronic interference. Shutting down and securing your unapproved and untested equipment when asked is important for your safety and mine.
We have a lot of electronic equipment in the cockpit, from instrument displays to navigation radios. We have radar, communication equipment, electrically heated windows, and various power sources, converters, inverters, rectifiers, and so forth. Everything in the cockpit has been installed, tested, and designed to function together. We know what to expect. Even the magnetic compass is tested and calibrated with the equipment operating so we know the effect that all the installed equipment will have.
When I sit down in the cockpit, I have to turn off my personal electronic equipment, too. The cell phone goes off. I use an electronic noise cancelling headset, but it's approved equipment in compliance with a technical standard order (TSO). When you're asked to turn off your cell phone and power down your equipment in the passenger section of the airplane, it's for good cause and you're in good company; pilots do the same thing, except for approved, necessary, and compatible equipment.
You're asked to keep your equipment off until we get above 10,000', when you're often told you can turn your equipment on. During that time, climbing to 10,000 or descending below that altitude, we have our own restrictions in the cockpit. We don't even engage in non-essential conversation; instead we maintain a "sterile cockpit." Safety rules are for everyone. They're applied a little differrently. You can talk in business class or coach, for example, whereas we are focused on the business of getting you somewhere safely. We don't talk. We can use an approved electronic device which is instaled in the airplane and tested and authorized for that installation, whereas you don't have that capability or permission during critical phases of flight. We all do our part. Consider keeping the electronics off to be doing yours, and we do appreciate your helping out.
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Originally Posted by Hartington
No. "Secured" doesn't mean on or off it simply means it is restrained so it doesn't fly around the cabin.
I understand all that but I'm afraid I'm still not wholly satisfied. If the iPad is certified as an EFB why can I not use my iPad on the same aircraft that is using an iPad based EFB?
Now, again, I accept that from the point of view of cabin crew it would be almost impossible to say to me, using an iPad "yes" and my neighbour with an iPhone "no". So, I'm not asking the question from the practical point of view but more as a point of principle (and no, I won't be standing on my high horse somewhere demanding to use the iPad I don't own).
Now, again, I accept that from the point of view of cabin crew it would be almost impossible to say to me, using an iPad "yes" and my neighbour with an iPhone "no". So, I'm not asking the question from the practical point of view but more as a point of principle (and no, I won't be standing on my high horse somewhere demanding to use the iPad I don't own).
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Again, it is not a general approval. Each individual operator requires individual approval. They will have been through an approval process and will be subject to specific conditions and restrictions. In other words, they are a known and controlled quantity. Hartington and Hartington's iPad are an unknown and uncontrolled quantity.
By law no operator is allowed to let PEDs be used in flight unless the operator have determined that the device will not interfere with aircraft systems. Take-off and landing are not the appropriate phases of flight to make that determination, which is why they must be switched off. In addition, devices containing radio transmitters are subject to additional restrictions.
It all comes down to the fact that passengers and passenger PEDs are an unknown quantity, whereas an approved operator and EFB are not.
By law no operator is allowed to let PEDs be used in flight unless the operator have determined that the device will not interfere with aircraft systems. Take-off and landing are not the appropriate phases of flight to make that determination, which is why they must be switched off. In addition, devices containing radio transmitters are subject to additional restrictions.
It all comes down to the fact that passengers and passenger PEDs are an unknown quantity, whereas an approved operator and EFB are not.
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You can use an Ipad once the seat belt signs have been switched off, until they are switched on again for landing.
SNS3Guppy has supplied a very good reason that you can't during the "critical" flight phases, however, there is another reason.
If you're engrossed in your scrabble or angry birds or other such Ipad pass-time, then you're not concentrating on what's going on around you. It's more than likely then that you'll miss an important PA or instruction in the event of a problem
.
This is another reason that you can't use it willy nilly, the pilot's will be using theirs for a specific purpose, not amusement.
SNS3Guppy has supplied a very good reason that you can't during the "critical" flight phases, however, there is another reason.
If you're engrossed in your scrabble or angry birds or other such Ipad pass-time, then you're not concentrating on what's going on around you. It's more than likely then that you'll miss an important PA or instruction in the event of a problem
.This is another reason that you can't use it willy nilly, the pilot's will be using theirs for a specific purpose, not amusement.
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Hi - this is an interesting thread.
One of the things I like doing is filming the takeoff and landing. A number of times I have said to flight attendants that I want a window seat and not over a wing specifically so I can do this and they have never objected, and in one case - http:// YouTube - Thassos from the air - we were sitting facing the flight attendant in her jumpseat - and chatting to her - for the entire time I was doing this.
So does that mean I've been breaking any laws? Mark
One of the things I like doing is filming the takeoff and landing. A number of times I have said to flight attendants that I want a window seat and not over a wing specifically so I can do this and they have never objected, and in one case - http:// YouTube - Thassos from the air - we were sitting facing the flight attendant in her jumpseat - and chatting to her - for the entire time I was doing this.
So does that mean I've been breaking any laws? Mark
Last edited by ilesmark; 8th Mar 2011 at 11:04.
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I understand all that but I'm afraid I'm still not wholly satisfied.
If the iPad is certified as an EFB why can I not use my iPad on the same aircraft that is using an iPad based EFB?
Are you planning on going to the trouble and expense of putting your Ipad on the certificate holder's program, and then using it only in the cockpit for charts? You might stand a chance. Otherwise, turn it off, do as you're instructed, and you won't have any problems.
Gentlemen, had you read my posts (like you asked me to read yours KBP) you would have realised I DO NOT OWN AN iPad.
My question was asked out of interest, not desire.
My question was asked out of interest, not desire.
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It's also irrelevant, and doesn't change the answer.
You got your answer. Be happy.
You appear to be more interested in arguing a point. It's not open for argument. It's a regulatory issue, and the crew is as bound by it as you, or anyone else is, whether you own an Ipad or not, whether you like it or not, or whether you're satisfied or not. Your ownership, your satisfaction, and your affinity for the regulation are irrelevant. It's been given you as clearly as it possibly can, and you have your response.
Enough, already.
You got your answer. Be happy.
You appear to be more interested in arguing a point. It's not open for argument. It's a regulatory issue, and the crew is as bound by it as you, or anyone else is, whether you own an Ipad or not, whether you like it or not, or whether you're satisfied or not. Your ownership, your satisfaction, and your affinity for the regulation are irrelevant. It's been given you as clearly as it possibly can, and you have your response.
Enough, already.
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As a starting point the use of any portable electronic device aboard aircraft is prohibited. There are a few exceptions such as portable voice recorders, hearing aids, pacemakers and electric shavers.
An operator may give a conditional permission for the use of a PED during non-critical parts of a flight if it determines that the device will not interfere with aircraft systems. An operator may however also decide not to allow any PEDs to be used aboard including those listed as acceptable.
So the answer to your question on whether digital cameras are allowed is; Yes, if the operator allows it and it is a non-critical phase of flight. Otherwise the answer is no.
An operator may give a conditional permission for the use of a PED during non-critical parts of a flight if it determines that the device will not interfere with aircraft systems. An operator may however also decide not to allow any PEDs to be used aboard including those listed as acceptable.
So the answer to your question on whether digital cameras are allowed is; Yes, if the operator allows it and it is a non-critical phase of flight. Otherwise the answer is no.
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I-Pad with ForeFlight
Hello Folks! Interesting thread with some knowledgeable replies. Perhaps there is someone who can help me with my specific questions:
Does anyone know if using ForeFlight on the Ipad would violate the FCC restriction from using a cellphone in flight? (Does ForeFlight/Ipad use cellphone based internet connectivity?)
Will ForeFlight satisfy the FAA requirement to be able to verify the currency of navigation charts? Does the program store ALL charts on the Ipad, or does it do an internet query every time you pick a new destination?
Has anyone ever heard of a Part 135 Certificate Holder actually getting FAA approval to use the Ipad with ForeFlight as an approved, Class 1, Type B, EFB application?
Thanks,
Scott
Does anyone know if using ForeFlight on the Ipad would violate the FCC restriction from using a cellphone in flight? (Does ForeFlight/Ipad use cellphone based internet connectivity?)
Will ForeFlight satisfy the FAA requirement to be able to verify the currency of navigation charts? Does the program store ALL charts on the Ipad, or does it do an internet query every time you pick a new destination?
Has anyone ever heard of a Part 135 Certificate Holder actually getting FAA approval to use the Ipad with ForeFlight as an approved, Class 1, Type B, EFB application?
Thanks,
Scott
