RAAF to get the F-22 and/or F-18E/F?
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RAAF to get the F-22 and/or F-18E/F?
THE Defence Minister, Brendan Nelson, has ordered a new proposal for an alternative to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter amid concerns the $15 billion project cannot be delivered as promised.
Dr Nelson also acknowledged the high risks in the Government's strategy for a new air combat capability that maintains Australia's long-held, and strategically vital, air dominance in the region.
He was impressed by the fighter's potential and believed, if delivered on time and for the promised price, it would be "the correct aircraft for us".
"I have said to Defence that I want a well-developed alternative. We don't have to finally commit to the Joint Strike Force by 2008 but I want to make sure we have a well-developed alternative well in advance of that."
He said he would not move the program to cabinet until alternatives were analysed and at least one selected. He would not identify what those alternatives might be. But Defence analysts have said the potent F-22 Raptor, the F-16 fighter jet and the Super Hornet, or a combination of them, were the likely candidates.
The fighter is not only the most expensive Defence project ever, it's the biggest investment by the Commonwealth since Federation. About 100 of the high-tech stealth fighters has been earmarked to replace the F-111s and the F/A-18 Hornets from 2010.
The Hornets will be upgraded, for $3 billion, to fill the gap if the Joint Strike Fighter is late. But major problems have hit the upgrade, notably its new electronic warfare self-protection system cannot be integrated. The Australian system, which alerts pilots to threats, had "technical difficulties" and may be abandoned in favour of another model.
The Joint Strike Fighter is in development, but there are concerns its price will skyrocket and delivery time fall back years. Congress is threatening to cut the program's budget.
If the US military, whose budget has blown out due to the Iraq war, cuts its production order, the price will go up substantially. Britain has already cut its order and others may follow
Dr Nelson also acknowledged the high risks in the Government's strategy for a new air combat capability that maintains Australia's long-held, and strategically vital, air dominance in the region.
He was impressed by the fighter's potential and believed, if delivered on time and for the promised price, it would be "the correct aircraft for us".
"I have said to Defence that I want a well-developed alternative. We don't have to finally commit to the Joint Strike Force by 2008 but I want to make sure we have a well-developed alternative well in advance of that."
He said he would not move the program to cabinet until alternatives were analysed and at least one selected. He would not identify what those alternatives might be. But Defence analysts have said the potent F-22 Raptor, the F-16 fighter jet and the Super Hornet, or a combination of them, were the likely candidates.
The fighter is not only the most expensive Defence project ever, it's the biggest investment by the Commonwealth since Federation. About 100 of the high-tech stealth fighters has been earmarked to replace the F-111s and the F/A-18 Hornets from 2010.
The Hornets will be upgraded, for $3 billion, to fill the gap if the Joint Strike Fighter is late. But major problems have hit the upgrade, notably its new electronic warfare self-protection system cannot be integrated. The Australian system, which alerts pilots to threats, had "technical difficulties" and may be abandoned in favour of another model.
The Joint Strike Fighter is in development, but there are concerns its price will skyrocket and delivery time fall back years. Congress is threatening to cut the program's budget.
If the US military, whose budget has blown out due to the Iraq war, cuts its production order, the price will go up substantially. Britain has already cut its order and others may follow
Give the new gen of knucks something to beat the meat over and keep the bros to the north in their place for a few more decades.
I wonder if the "operational sovereignty" issues have been sorted out? I'd hate to have a Lockheed technician disable the aircraft on company orders because AMerica oesn't want us to use them for some political reason.
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How many F-22's and related support would 15bill buy I wonder? Even if it was only half the JSF numbers you'd be getting more than twice the capability, twice the peace time survivability (two eng v one), twice the shock and awe factor from anyone considering causing trouble.
Sounds like a bargain to me.
Sounds like a bargain to me.
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Time to upgrade all the pigs and make those "spares" operational methinks.
Waaaay cheaper, more effective in our area of operations and no "operational sovereignty" problems.
The idea that you buy a weapons platform from another country who retains the ability to deny its use whenever they think fit, is real loony tunes only a "captive" partner would contemplate.
Waaaay cheaper, more effective in our area of operations and no "operational sovereignty" problems.
The idea that you buy a weapons platform from another country who retains the ability to deny its use whenever they think fit, is real loony tunes only a "captive" partner would contemplate.
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Gaunty,
the fact that the current CAF would probably qualify as one of the most avid Pig supporters, but is supporting its replacement should tell you something.
The Pig is on its last breath(s).
the fact that the current CAF would probably qualify as one of the most avid Pig supporters, but is supporting its replacement should tell you something.
The Pig is on its last breath(s).
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Sure, if you had a blank cheque to keep the pigs operational they might get a few more years, but you can't just keep riveting repairs onto it forever (unless you're happy to have them as cool hangar ornaments of course). With the pig out of production for a long time now and its spares inventory drying up, its use-by date has come - JSF or no JSF.
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Is that $15bill US?
Is that $15bill US?
I also second the call for the F22 and F18E/F, maybe even keep the F111 around and let the boffins at the DSTO work some magic.
A quick Google and I came up with the following prices;
30 x F22 = US$187 mil per unit
70 x F18E/F = US$84 mil per unit
12 x EF18G = US$95 mil per unit
Working on a these prices it adds up to US$12,637,000,000.
I also think we should also look into getting backing into the floating air field business, perhaps team up with the French and British on the CVF. Could operate the Rhinos from them, and if we stayed away from "pimpin" our own rides, we might be able to afford it.
Is that $15bill US?
I also second the call for the F22 and F18E/F, maybe even keep the F111 around and let the boffins at the DSTO work some magic.
A quick Google and I came up with the following prices;
30 x F22 = US$187 mil per unit
70 x F18E/F = US$84 mil per unit
12 x EF18G = US$95 mil per unit
Working on a these prices it adds up to US$12,637,000,000.
I also think we should also look into getting backing into the floating air field business, perhaps team up with the French and British on the CVF. Could operate the Rhinos from them, and if we stayed away from "pimpin" our own rides, we might be able to afford it.
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I reiterate my feelings on the F-111. Great aeroplane but with many of the regional air forces having a look-down/shoot down all weather capability, it's day is probably done.
I believe the reason it wasn't sent to the Gulf has a lot to do with the above.
I believe the reason it wasn't sent to the Gulf has a lot to do with the above.
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I see there’s a thread on the same subject on the Military Pilots Forum. gaunty, I spoke only last week to a multi-starred man who should know, and he tells me that despite all the best wishes in the world, the TrippleWun is on its last legs, with technical shortcomings appearing that simply can’t be ignored.
I suspect that recent events might have helped convince a few of the suits in Canberra that what those boring men in blue uniforms have been telling them all along just might be true - the JSF simply will not and can never replace the F111 as a credible deterrent.
I forget who it was who originally coined the ‘speak softly and carry a big stick’ phrase (one of the Roosevelts or Harry Truman?), but in an increasingly uncertain world, the JSF simply isn’t a big enough stick (or to be more accurate, doesn’t have nearly long enough legs) to provide Australia with a credible deterrent force, and it might only now be occurring to a few of the civilian mandarins in Canberra that the day might actually come – and in the not so distant future - when we have (to hopefully only threaten) to use it.
I suspect that recent events might have helped convince a few of the suits in Canberra that what those boring men in blue uniforms have been telling them all along just might be true - the JSF simply will not and can never replace the F111 as a credible deterrent.
I forget who it was who originally coined the ‘speak softly and carry a big stick’ phrase (one of the Roosevelts or Harry Truman?), but in an increasingly uncertain world, the JSF simply isn’t a big enough stick (or to be more accurate, doesn’t have nearly long enough legs) to provide Australia with a credible deterrent force, and it might only now be occurring to a few of the civilian mandarins in Canberra that the day might actually come – and in the not so distant future - when we have (to hopefully only threaten) to use it.
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Originally Posted by Croppyking
Why an F18E/F when the F15K/T costs about the same?
2. It has got a hook.
3. There is some commonality with our present F18's
I believe the Eurofighter Typhoon is turning into a kick-arse air superiority fighter, with good multi-role capability. Worth a thought?
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OK, so I'll expand on this topic a little bit, tell me to pull my head in if you think its warranted. With Dr Nelson looking at defence spending and capabilities. In aviation assets here is what I would like to see come 2015.
Air Force
30 x F22
70 x FA18E/F* or 70 x F15K/T
12 x EF18G*
4 x C17
10 x A330
12 x C130J
3 x AC130 Spectra
3 x MC130 Combat Talon
8 x APC-3 Orion
12 x Global Hawk
+ Trainers + BBJ + Challengers
Rotary Assets for the Navy and Army
Army
12 x Chinook - Small number dedicated to Special forces
40 x MRH90
22 x Tiger
30 x UH145
26 x A/MH6 - lead in trainer & Special Operations
Navy
20 x MRH90 - for use as Utility and for the LHD's
20 x MRH90 - to replace sea sprites and sea hawks
20 x UH145 - utility
6 x Hawkeye
6 x Greyhounds / embarked refuelers
Advantages for the rotary force, 5 types, 3 common for both the Navy and Army. UH145 and MRH90 should be in service with other countries in large numbers by the time we deploy them.
*As in my previous post, if we were to buy into CVF or similar.
Welcome your constructive thoughts.
Air Force
30 x F22
70 x FA18E/F* or 70 x F15K/T
12 x EF18G*
4 x C17
10 x A330
12 x C130J
3 x AC130 Spectra
3 x MC130 Combat Talon
8 x APC-3 Orion
12 x Global Hawk
+ Trainers + BBJ + Challengers
Rotary Assets for the Navy and Army
Army
12 x Chinook - Small number dedicated to Special forces
40 x MRH90
22 x Tiger
30 x UH145
26 x A/MH6 - lead in trainer & Special Operations
Navy
20 x MRH90 - for use as Utility and for the LHD's
20 x MRH90 - to replace sea sprites and sea hawks
20 x UH145 - utility
6 x Hawkeye
6 x Greyhounds / embarked refuelers
Advantages for the rotary force, 5 types, 3 common for both the Navy and Army. UH145 and MRH90 should be in service with other countries in large numbers by the time we deploy them.
*As in my previous post, if we were to buy into CVF or similar.
Welcome your constructive thoughts.
