Security...what a joke!
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Security...what a joke!
Pointless security checks at EGAE (City of Derry).
A couple of days ago, after a flight from Derry to Dublin, aftert the pax disembarked, the cabin crew brought me an empty Guiness pint glass and can, which a passenger had obviously left behind, having boarded with it at LDY.
HOw on earth did they get through security with that I thought!
So, on returning to LDY, I took said pint glass to the security people and asked how the passenger got through with the potentially legal object. The security guy said they knew about the problem, but the bosses won't do anything about it. He told me they are instructed to confiscate nail files and such like, but once through security, the pax go to the departure lounge, where they are served food with metal knives and forks, and where the must have gotten the pint glass from. They are then free from any more security checks and board the aircraft fully armed!!!!
I can't beleive security staff know about this, but won't (or are unable) to do anything to improve it.
Comments please.
JF
A couple of days ago, after a flight from Derry to Dublin, aftert the pax disembarked, the cabin crew brought me an empty Guiness pint glass and can, which a passenger had obviously left behind, having boarded with it at LDY.
HOw on earth did they get through security with that I thought!
So, on returning to LDY, I took said pint glass to the security people and asked how the passenger got through with the potentially legal object. The security guy said they knew about the problem, but the bosses won't do anything about it. He told me they are instructed to confiscate nail files and such like, but once through security, the pax go to the departure lounge, where they are served food with metal knives and forks, and where the must have gotten the pint glass from. They are then free from any more security checks and board the aircraft fully armed!!!!
I can't beleive security staff know about this, but won't (or are unable) to do anything to improve it.
Comments please.
JF
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Security?
Most airports sell you the beer and give you the glass afer security, but you still have to eat your steak with a plastic knife.
Don't blame security, blame the gate staff instead for not strip searching everyone including you!
Don't blame security, blame the gate staff instead for not strip searching everyone including you!
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How about the Duty Free
This is only one of a huge number of contradictions in supposed airport/airline security...How about the glass bottles available for purchase in most airport "duty-free" shops or even on board some aircraft...we happily let people wander around with those.
On a related note but slightly more logical...I note the authorities in AMS have removed the security check from immediately after immigration and now put the machines and search cone at entry to the departure gate - Far more sensible and appropriate if more labour intensive for the airport authority.
On a related note but slightly more logical...I note the authorities in AMS have removed the security check from immediately after immigration and now put the machines and search cone at entry to the departure gate - Far more sensible and appropriate if more labour intensive for the airport authority.
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As a SLF I'll keep it wift and to the point here. Part of what I do is to work in IT security (where security is just as much an euphemism as in the airport kind of security). Where many people err is in recognising security properly.
Airport security is actually proper security, the way it is intended to function. Like with all other operations, follow the money and you will find the answer. The airports and airlines can not exist without the crucial ingredient: the passanger that pays for the show and thus generate the business.
So how is today's airport security good security? It convinces the layman that flying is indeed safe. Given all the hoopla and strange security measures, this has to be a generally safe thing, not? This keeps the audience coming, and the number of accidents stemming from things security should have caught onto at a fairly low and acceptable rate.
Like all security measures you see at the airport and onboard, all these are simple reactionary measures put in place to give half a nod to the fact that we don't want last weeks nuthead from the headlines to repeat him/herself just now. (The shoe carnival after whatshisname from the UK wanted to blow himself up with items embedded in shoe, no knives after 9/11 since that was the method at that time, etc., positive confirmation of luggage and owner after PanAm and a few others).
You will rarely find authorities putting down security measures that will interfere with the revenue model of operations (hence glassbottles in tax free, and perfume that in cases should would be strong enough work as pepper spray if applied correct, etc.).
So what does this have to do with making ecurity actually being security? It protects the business, the revenue, and gives the business the appearance of being impregnable to nutters and others wanting to disrupt it, this making granny and the family feel warm and fuzzy about how securely they are taken from A to B, given how much of what they hear at the airport is this or that due to security reasons, new security regulations, etc.
What does this have to do with security from the standpoint fo wanting to make sure harmfull items cannot be carried onboard and actually securing the revenue model from real threat? Very little. If that was the case shops would be pre-checkin to facilitate taxfree going in checked luggage, returants with glass/cutlery would be pre-security to make sure noone could get less friendly objects onboard.
So next time time someone promises great security or berates security, ask yourself this: security for who, protecting what?
-A
Airport security is actually proper security, the way it is intended to function. Like with all other operations, follow the money and you will find the answer. The airports and airlines can not exist without the crucial ingredient: the passanger that pays for the show and thus generate the business.
So how is today's airport security good security? It convinces the layman that flying is indeed safe. Given all the hoopla and strange security measures, this has to be a generally safe thing, not? This keeps the audience coming, and the number of accidents stemming from things security should have caught onto at a fairly low and acceptable rate.
Like all security measures you see at the airport and onboard, all these are simple reactionary measures put in place to give half a nod to the fact that we don't want last weeks nuthead from the headlines to repeat him/herself just now. (The shoe carnival after whatshisname from the UK wanted to blow himself up with items embedded in shoe, no knives after 9/11 since that was the method at that time, etc., positive confirmation of luggage and owner after PanAm and a few others).
You will rarely find authorities putting down security measures that will interfere with the revenue model of operations (hence glassbottles in tax free, and perfume that in cases should would be strong enough work as pepper spray if applied correct, etc.).
So what does this have to do with making ecurity actually being security? It protects the business, the revenue, and gives the business the appearance of being impregnable to nutters and others wanting to disrupt it, this making granny and the family feel warm and fuzzy about how securely they are taken from A to B, given how much of what they hear at the airport is this or that due to security reasons, new security regulations, etc.
What does this have to do with security from the standpoint fo wanting to make sure harmfull items cannot be carried onboard and actually securing the revenue model from real threat? Very little. If that was the case shops would be pre-checkin to facilitate taxfree going in checked luggage, returants with glass/cutlery would be pre-security to make sure noone could get less friendly objects onboard.
So next time time someone promises great security or berates security, ask yourself this: security for who, protecting what?
-A
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The current state of "security and screening" is probably the result of high level meetings held on the subject:
So, we need to be seen to be doing something, what is really obvious every time it goes through the machine?
uuhh, little tiny scissors? yup, knives?, oh ya, nail file? yes! Guns? well on the rare occasion some idiot has one, certainly.
OK, and of those items what does almost everyone have?
well not too many people have guns and knives on a daily basis, but you know we see little tiny scissors and nail files in pretty much every bag!
Well, then we have our solution, an item we can confiscate from almost every passenger, now we look like we are REALLY achieving something!!
Right then, little tiny scissors and nail files it is!
( has anyone seen a valid survey on how many homicides are the direct result of a nail file on a yearly basis?)
Well luckily due to the extreme diligence of the current security staff this can no longer happen, but in previous ( pre 9-11) years had the purser called up to inform us that the aircraft had been comandeered by a nail file wielding gang of thugs, I would have been laughing too hard to make a valid decision!
However the solution would have been easy, as most FA's used to have as an MEL item at least one massive! nail file, said group would have been out gunned anyway.
In fact this may all have deeper conspiratorial roots, it may actually be a massive behind the scenes lobby by the press on nail people,
Take away the means to perform much needed nail maintenance, and the sales will soar!
So, we need to be seen to be doing something, what is really obvious every time it goes through the machine?
uuhh, little tiny scissors? yup, knives?, oh ya, nail file? yes! Guns? well on the rare occasion some idiot has one, certainly.
OK, and of those items what does almost everyone have?
well not too many people have guns and knives on a daily basis, but you know we see little tiny scissors and nail files in pretty much every bag!
Well, then we have our solution, an item we can confiscate from almost every passenger, now we look like we are REALLY achieving something!!
Right then, little tiny scissors and nail files it is!
( has anyone seen a valid survey on how many homicides are the direct result of a nail file on a yearly basis?)
Well luckily due to the extreme diligence of the current security staff this can no longer happen, but in previous ( pre 9-11) years had the purser called up to inform us that the aircraft had been comandeered by a nail file wielding gang of thugs, I would have been laughing too hard to make a valid decision!
However the solution would have been easy, as most FA's used to have as an MEL item at least one massive! nail file, said group would have been out gunned anyway.
In fact this may all have deeper conspiratorial roots, it may actually be a massive behind the scenes lobby by the press on nail people,
Take away the means to perform much needed nail maintenance, and the sales will soar!
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Originally Posted by canadair
The current state of "security and screening" is probably the result of high level meetings held on the subject:
So, we need to be seen to be doing something, what is really obvious every time it goes through the machine?
uuhh, little tiny scissors? yup, knives?, oh ya, nail file? yes! Guns? well on the rare occasion some idiot has one, certainly.
OK, and of those items what does almost everyone have?
well not too many people have guns and knives on a daily basis, but you know we see little tiny scissors and nail files in pretty much every bag!
Well, then we have our solution, an item we can confiscate from almost every passenger, now we look like we are REALLY achieving something!!
Right then, little tiny scissors and nail files it is!
( has anyone seen a valid survey on how many homicides are the direct result of a nail file on a yearly basis?)
Well luckily due to the extreme diligence of the current security staff this can no longer happen, but in previous ( pre 9-11) years had the purser called up to inform us that the aircraft had been comandeered by a nail file wielding gang of thugs, I would have been laughing too hard to make a valid decision!
However the solution would have been easy, as most FA's used to have as an MEL item at least one massive! nail file, said group would have been out gunned anyway.
In fact this may all have deeper conspiratorial roots, it may actually be a massive behind the scenes lobby by the press on nail people,
Take away the means to perform much needed nail maintenance, and the sales will soar!
So, we need to be seen to be doing something, what is really obvious every time it goes through the machine?
uuhh, little tiny scissors? yup, knives?, oh ya, nail file? yes! Guns? well on the rare occasion some idiot has one, certainly.
OK, and of those items what does almost everyone have?
well not too many people have guns and knives on a daily basis, but you know we see little tiny scissors and nail files in pretty much every bag!
Well, then we have our solution, an item we can confiscate from almost every passenger, now we look like we are REALLY achieving something!!
Right then, little tiny scissors and nail files it is!
( has anyone seen a valid survey on how many homicides are the direct result of a nail file on a yearly basis?)
Well luckily due to the extreme diligence of the current security staff this can no longer happen, but in previous ( pre 9-11) years had the purser called up to inform us that the aircraft had been comandeered by a nail file wielding gang of thugs, I would have been laughing too hard to make a valid decision!
However the solution would have been easy, as most FA's used to have as an MEL item at least one massive! nail file, said group would have been out gunned anyway.
In fact this may all have deeper conspiratorial roots, it may actually be a massive behind the scenes lobby by the press on nail people,
Take away the means to perform much needed nail maintenance, and the sales will soar!
This is a system designed with the security angle of making the layman feel secure, not a system deisgned to make an aircraft a location where it is impossible to combine bad intent with dangerous objects. That kind of security is what you find in banks, where the items to be secured is money in its immediate form and it is mostly physically impossible to gain access to significant parts of it and get away without going to extreme lengths. A big difference between the bank's pile of money and the 9/11 attacks is the aspect of reuse, which makes the proposition of taking that security model across to the airline/aircraft/airport world.
-A
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Let's not even talk about the equipment that is onboard aircraft, and which in some cases aren't that well concealed - who'd ever think of using those for attacking someone? 
Horgy
Horgy
Last edited by MrHorgy; 6th Jun 2006 at 16:07.
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Originally Posted by MrHorgy
Let's not even talk about the fire axe's that are onboard aircraft, and which in some cases aren't that well concealed - who'd ever think of using those for attacking someone?
Horgy
Horgy
-A
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My post edited now.
My point was there is so many dangers out there worse than a nail file, I resent it when security take the scissors off me I use to open the Atlas Boxes!
Horgy
My point was there is so many dangers out there worse than a nail file, I resent it when security take the scissors off me I use to open the Atlas Boxes!
Horgy
Still behind the curtain
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The security people are a bit more relaxed now. Small scissors and nail cutters have come off the list.
As for other items, a heavy duty serated plastic knife served on board, or a fork, can do serious damage if used in the proper way, which I won't go into.
As for other items, a heavy duty serated plastic knife served on board, or a fork, can do serious damage if used in the proper way, which I won't go into.
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Originally Posted by LatviaCalling
As for other items, a heavy duty serated plastic knife served on board, or a fork, can do serious damage if used in the proper way, which I won't go into.
Hasnt this thread been done before??
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
Surely any plastic airline cutlery that can cut through airline food should be banned. I dont even think the crash axe would cut through some airline food that I have tried to eat!
Hasnt this thread been done before??
Hasnt this thread been done before??
If people could get their mind around that simple fact and try to have a discussion about what kind of security they would like to have and then maybe this couid be fruitful (and even educational), but bashing the same topic about having had some item of little consequence removed or having had a pointless patting down at some point on the tarmac when you are the personel tasked with actually commanding the aircraft is always going to end in a thread with a few posts moaning about that, a few followups mentioning a few other pointless runins with security and then that will be it.
-A
Originally Posted by ph-ndr
I think you'll find nail files stemming from the same worries that were post 9/11, looking at the way the attacks were carried out and the "weapon" used. This way pretty much any object loosely fitting this description. This is as with other turning points in aviation security a completely reactionary method, and as numbers can tell, it seems tohave worked. People are aware that any number of strangely normal objects have been used in commandeering an aircraft, thus a long list of things have been prohibited, and this makes granny feel safe about flying.
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Originally Posted by xetroV
But granny doesn't know that the "weapons" that were supposedly used to take over control of those planes were (not surprisingly) never banned after 9/11. "Priceless!"
-A
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Originally Posted by Charles Darwin
I see only one way out of this.
Strip all passengers and handcuff them to the seats!
Strip all passengers and handcuff them to the seats!
-A
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ph-ndr
As you are (self confessed) SLF, I would suggest that while you may have an opinion, I don't think it appropriate for you to come on a Professional Pilots website, and tell us that we should all stop commmenting on the lack of security which threatens us every day of our working life.
Sometimes we just want to have a moan about it. I myself just wanted to find out if others had a similar thing happen to them.
So, your comments are welcome, just don't tell (or suggest to) me what I can or can't say on a forum for my industry. I don't go on IT websites bumping my gums!
Cheers
JF
As you are (self confessed) SLF, I would suggest that while you may have an opinion, I don't think it appropriate for you to come on a Professional Pilots website, and tell us that we should all stop commmenting on the lack of security which threatens us every day of our working life.
Sometimes we just want to have a moan about it. I myself just wanted to find out if others had a similar thing happen to them.
So, your comments are welcome, just don't tell (or suggest to) me what I can or can't say on a forum for my industry. I don't go on IT websites bumping my gums!
Cheers
JF
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Jock, PH-NDR is the only one in this thread that has said something that hasn't been said a million times before. Something that makes sense. Not bad for SLF.
As to not poking your nose in other man's profession: since when are a bunch of pilots experts in security? PH-NDR is not telling you how to fly, but you on the other hand, are certainly telling security how to secure...
I know we like complaining about things we do not really understand, but then do not be surprised that there will be people responding, maybe even lowly SLF's who may have a better uderstanding of reality.
As to not poking your nose in other man's profession: since when are a bunch of pilots experts in security?
PH-NDR is not telling you how to fly, but you on the other hand, are certainly telling security how to secure...I know we like complaining about things we do not really understand, but then do not be surprised that there will be people responding, maybe even lowly SLF's who may have a better uderstanding of reality.