EVA Air 747 without nosegear at LHR
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ontario Canada
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*sheared...ha*
The engineer involved wished it had sheared....but that is highly unlikely....if they were using the fish pole type, its easy to insert the pin into the wrong holes, and it does not hold when gear is selected up...no other option but to get a stand and verify that the pin is in the right hole....human factors all the way. take your time, and balls on the delay. Yes, that pilot and station manager yelling in your ear should go away, but they will not unless you tell them to....
We as engineers appear grouchy sometimes....and for good reason, when thing go wrong because we are rushed...its usually very expensive.
I work at air canada, and we have some experience with 767;s on their nose, hopefully the jumbo is a little more tolerant...the last 767 in yyz required boeing to reinstall and laser level the avionics rack so everything lined up again...very costly. At least this one was outside, and its tail did not jam into the hangar roof...
CB
Go slow, and do it right....delays are easier to explain than incidents.....
reminds me of the joke about the old bull and young bull....*g*
We as engineers appear grouchy sometimes....and for good reason, when thing go wrong because we are rushed...its usually very expensive.I work at air canada, and we have some experience with 767;s on their nose, hopefully the jumbo is a little more tolerant...the last 767 in yyz required boeing to reinstall and laser level the avionics rack so everything lined up again...very costly. At least this one was outside, and its tail did not jam into the hangar roof...
CB
Go slow, and do it right....delays are easier to explain than incidents.....
reminds me of the joke about the old bull and young bull....*g*
Join Date: Aug 2001
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That dang gear thing
Ya see folks, in every day ops, there are a myriad of "pins" inserted into the downlock of the 747 nose gear. It's a throwback to the 707 days when the nose gear could be pulled up during tow.
These are not meant to keep the gear from folding up if you power the system, pull the trigger override and put the gear handle up. They're there to keep the TUG from pulling the gear up. A belt and suspenders sort of thing. NO pin should REALLY be required for the downlock for routine ops (towing/pushback), but we are a superstitious lot and nobody really wants to prove that the pins aren't needed for a tow.
Having said that, there are a number of maintenance checks that require the gear be pinned with weight on wheels and the gear handle being placed in the up position and the system pressurized.
These are not infrequent in the hangar, but rare on the line. In any event, the rarity of this procedure on the line negates any excuse for not actually climbing up the strut and inserting the actual mark 1 mod 0 manufacturers gear pin.
Oh yeah, if I were doing a leak check, I would have opened the gear doors manually and locked them there via the ground handle. Then you could cycle the gear handle all day long and the doors would stay open. Both sides of the system would be powered, but the doors would stay open. In any event, this inadvertant retraction is NOT an uncommon event (unfortunately).
If memory serves me, a common reason for a nose drop is an AVO changing a #2 INS control head. In order to extract the box, the gear handle has to be up. AVO puts gear handle up, replaces the box, then goes for tea or coffee or some other distraction. Somebody powers the system and you get that sinking feeling.
Getting back to the pin getting pulled out by the doors, that's sort of unlikely. IF you are using the routine fishpole pin, I believe you have to tie the bar to the strut to prevent the thing from swinging forward and getting stuck between the doors when you put the handle back up and close the doors. Otherwise, you will be changing a pair of gear doors. I could be wrong on that point, it HAS been a while since I pinned a 747, but I am fairly certain.
Finally, you are not really locking the gear, you're locking the down lock. It's an overcenter design, so theoretically, looking at it funny should stop it from going over center. Could be wrong there as well, but.....
It IS possible that if the lock on the gear pin was defective, the vibration caused by moving the gear handle up and down (the airplane shakes and rattles when you do this procedure) COULD have caused the pin to fall out, but if there was a person standing there, ostensibly on the headset and looking for a leak, he or she would have seen the pin fall out if it didn't hit them on the head.
A rambling reply, but someone is destined for a management position. Of this, I am sure.
PB
These are not meant to keep the gear from folding up if you power the system, pull the trigger override and put the gear handle up. They're there to keep the TUG from pulling the gear up. A belt and suspenders sort of thing. NO pin should REALLY be required for the downlock for routine ops (towing/pushback), but we are a superstitious lot and nobody really wants to prove that the pins aren't needed for a tow.
Having said that, there are a number of maintenance checks that require the gear be pinned with weight on wheels and the gear handle being placed in the up position and the system pressurized.
These are not infrequent in the hangar, but rare on the line. In any event, the rarity of this procedure on the line negates any excuse for not actually climbing up the strut and inserting the actual mark 1 mod 0 manufacturers gear pin.
Oh yeah, if I were doing a leak check, I would have opened the gear doors manually and locked them there via the ground handle. Then you could cycle the gear handle all day long and the doors would stay open. Both sides of the system would be powered, but the doors would stay open. In any event, this inadvertant retraction is NOT an uncommon event (unfortunately).
If memory serves me, a common reason for a nose drop is an AVO changing a #2 INS control head. In order to extract the box, the gear handle has to be up. AVO puts gear handle up, replaces the box, then goes for tea or coffee or some other distraction. Somebody powers the system and you get that sinking feeling.
Getting back to the pin getting pulled out by the doors, that's sort of unlikely. IF you are using the routine fishpole pin, I believe you have to tie the bar to the strut to prevent the thing from swinging forward and getting stuck between the doors when you put the handle back up and close the doors. Otherwise, you will be changing a pair of gear doors. I could be wrong on that point, it HAS been a while since I pinned a 747, but I am fairly certain.
Finally, you are not really locking the gear, you're locking the down lock. It's an overcenter design, so theoretically, looking at it funny should stop it from going over center. Could be wrong there as well, but.....
It IS possible that if the lock on the gear pin was defective, the vibration caused by moving the gear handle up and down (the airplane shakes and rattles when you do this procedure) COULD have caused the pin to fall out, but if there was a person standing there, ostensibly on the headset and looking for a leak, he or she would have seen the pin fall out if it didn't hit them on the head.
A rambling reply, but someone is destined for a management position. Of this, I am sure.
PB
Join Date: May 2000
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Seems that a lot of people round here have perfect eyesight, including 20/20 hindsight!
Only a few guys were there, and doubtless doing their best, all humans screw up sometimes. These guys, guilty or not, are going to have to contend with the inevitable witch hunt. Good luck to you.
Only a few guys were there, and doubtless doing their best, all humans screw up sometimes. These guys, guilty or not, are going to have to contend with the inevitable witch hunt. Good luck to you.
Guest
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Hi,
Seems that it was the second attempt with the lever. Yes, they used a "long" nose pin that was fitted corectly. However, the doors may have caught on the streamer and pulled it out on the first "retraction".
The nose pin was locally manufactured by BA and is approved for use under all circumstances. These pins are a cheap second compared to the Boeing part but are widely used within BA. Cost cutting that never pans out.
Rant begins
The local BA manager is known as the Village Idiot!! He has recently precided over one Engineer being sacked and another demoted. Mostly to cover for his own incompitance.
Rant ends
Casto
Seems that it was the second attempt with the lever. Yes, they used a "long" nose pin that was fitted corectly. However, the doors may have caught on the streamer and pulled it out on the first "retraction".
The nose pin was locally manufactured by BA and is approved for use under all circumstances. These pins are a cheap second compared to the Boeing part but are widely used within BA. Cost cutting that never pans out.
Rant begins
The local BA manager is known as the Village Idiot!! He has recently precided over one Engineer being sacked and another demoted. Mostly to cover for his own incompitance.
Rant ends
Casto
Join Date: Jun 2001
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>>The nose pin was locally manufactured by BA and is approved for use under all circumstances. These pins are a cheap second compared to the Boeing part but are widely used within BA. Cost cutting that never pans out.<<
Sounds a lot like the Northwest incident at SIN I mentioned earlier on this thread!
Sounds a lot like the Northwest incident at SIN I mentioned earlier on this thread!
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Marcel
It had just landed from being delivered ex-KBFI (Boeing Field). The ink hadn't even dried on the Benjaman Franklin's before the tail stand penetrated the right elevator.
It had just landed from being delivered ex-KBFI (Boeing Field). The ink hadn't even dried on the Benjaman Franklin's before the tail stand penetrated the right elevator.
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i guess the aircraft now is sitting inside hangar awaiting financial talks between both parties. if i'm not wrong standard iata service contract won't cover full liability of amount like this. busy time for the lawyers.
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Rumour control has it, that it will be out of service for 2-3 months and cost between $6-8M to repair. Apparently, when it landed on it's open nose gear doors (which looked like a venetian blind afterwards) it forced the whole nose gear bay upwards into the fuse slightly........Oh dear!
Apparently, there was one person slightly injured.....A bag ape was rifling through the galley, eating a lamb chop, when the aircraft dropped he went upwards, banging his head on the galley structure. He reportedly needed a few stitches and I would expect a clean pair of Y-fronts......Mind you, they were probably dirty before the incident anyway!
Apparently, there was one person slightly injured.....A bag ape was rifling through the galley, eating a lamb chop, when the aircraft dropped he went upwards, banging his head on the galley structure. He reportedly needed a few stitches and I would expect a clean pair of Y-fronts......Mind you, they were probably dirty before the incident anyway!
