Dunkirk Remembered
 

Gentlemen, just a small word to remind you of the 60th anniversary of Operation Dynanmo,whereby the British Army was sucessfully extracted from Dunkirk.
After the total collapse of French forces,the only option was evacuation despite accusations of betrayal from the French, we had only been there to help bail them out.
In the words of the great man himself, "the battle of France is over, I expect the battle of Britain is about to begin"
Thus began one of the greatest chapters in the history of this country,- the "finest hour".
This event deserves our remembrance, while at the same time also serves to throw light on a subject we have been debating recently on this forum,i.e. our relationship with France.
Personally, I will never understand the antagonism of France towards us,which stands uneasily together with her cosy relationship with Germany in Europe today given two world wars and the fact we were allies.
C'est la guerre.
C'est la vie.

Mach 78..I am glad to see your posting regarding the importance of remembering the Dunkirk anniversary..I am attending the rememberance events myself as from tomorrow..Anyone who could witness the superb hospitality given to our veterans by the people of Dunkirk + De Panne after all these years, would find it hard to believe that our two nations just can`t get along together every other day of the year !

I think that this post demeans both the brave Frenchmen and the brave British who fought and died at and before Dunkirk.

French and the Brits.If you open the book 200 moons ago there might be grounds for a punch up. Can't stand in the same water twice. As for WW2 I think we(they) did enough. For every young person that fell, no matter who you were, God bless you, I thank you, and I shall always drink to you.

Freeman

JP J

I'm curious. How does anything said on this thread so far demean either the Brits of the French who died at Dunkirk.

Heroes to a man, I'd say, especially the little boat skippers, many of whom were weekend civilian in-shore sailors, who risked life and limb many times over to bring more than 300,000 of our blokes and God knows how many Frenchmen and others to the safe haven of Blighty.

The only thing demeaning to the men who fell at Dunkirk and all other battles of the 2nd WW, is the state of the armed forces in the United States (and maybe other EU countries), which was then known as a "sleeping giant," and has now been reduced to a Pres. Clinton "meals on wheels" social program manned (or womaned as Clinton now has it) buy people who just don't stack up the levels of valor displayed by those Brits/Americans and Germans of times gone.

The Best General Officers this country had, (post MacAurthor and Patton) left in droves during the early 90's and the rest were removed by a "politically correct" Department of Defense staff appointed by Commie Bill himself!

Sorry guys if I went a bit off subject, had to vent!

Hail To The Chief, and Long Live the Queen!

The regular 'pilgrimage' across the channel is a great visual reminder, to us all, of the sacrifice made by all allied men to protect the freedom we alll enjoy today.

With regards to our relationship with the French. It seems to me we love to to hate them as much as they love to hate us. However all is not always as it seems. Especially when the chips are down!

Maaaaate - when the chips are down those buggers call 'em pommes frites and claim to have invented them....

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....

Mach 8,
Well chosen words, with which I endorse to the hilt.
It would be ill mannered to divert from the thread and say anything else regarding certain posts after yours !

Let's us all remember Dunkirk, and be grateful for those intimately involved all those years ago.

I still don't think that the Dunkirk anniversary is an appropriate peg to hang a bit of French bashing on.

French and British soldiers died fighting on the same side, and those of us who are too young to have been there should respect the memory of the dead of both nations.

There are two aspects of this operation that I don't quite understand. Where were the capital ships of the RN? As far as I can tell, they were nowhere around.

Next, why did Hitler send his Panzers North into the Low Countries when he could have driven West and overwhelmed the Allies, and taken enough prisoners to perhaps cause England to accept a reasonable peace treaty which could have been offered?

Believe it or not, at that time Hitler still had the misguided notion that the British Empire and the 3rd Reich could live in peace side by side, ruling the world equally. Hitler had a deep admiration for the British Empire and did not wish to provoke Britain! It was because of this, in the most part, that he made that fatal mistake (or not, depending what side you were on!)

It wasn't long before he snapped out of it though, and started hating the Brits with a venom.

Some historians say that after Churchill had tamed his Cabinet and delivered the "We shall never surrender" speech, then it was only a matter of time before Germany lost the war.

Dunkirk was a huge event in the story of WW2, and it is absolutely right that it should be remembered. My Grandfather was on the beach 60 years ago, I'll never forget!

The RN ships were protecting the merchant convoys crossing the Atlantic and at that time I don't think the UK/US lend/lease agreement had been forged so there weren't that many ships to go around.

Captain Ed,
As regards the panzers stopping, perhaps there was an element of Hitler letting the British escape with some sort of "dignity", thinking some sort of peace could still be negotiated.It COULD have happened, as there were appeasers such as Lord Halifax and Chamberlain around- but one man in particular stood in the way- WSL Churchill.
This may appear strange, but there is evidence that Hitler believed there was a place for a British Empire which could accommodate Germany.Main preoccupation was primarily Russia.

As regards the R.N., believe the whole situation was so fluid and happened so quickly(it was blitzkreig remember-lightning war)the Home Fleet simply had no time.

I'll tell you where the navy was a month later though-Tels-El-Kebir, where it blew up the French fleet after it was given, and refused several options (Churchill considered it was a threat and may have come under German control).
Hope this helps.
Finally may I state categorically there is no question of lack of respect for ALL of the dead of the tradgedy that was WW2- not just Britain and France, but bigger losers such the then Soviet Union.
To suggest otherwise I consider an insult.

Yes Snigs, I agree with all that you say.You just got in before I posted!

Whilst there may occasionally be some harsh words said about the French and other nationalities in various topics on these forums, that is not to say that we do not honour those who suffered on the beaches of Dunkirk or anywhere else during the Second World War. Only too often there are those who'se only interpretation of events that led up to those fateful days and all the events since is Hollywoods interpretation as portrayed all too often without the deeper understanding of what was involved.

Perhaps if a few more people were to take the time to read some of the more detailed histories and backgrounds instead of relying on just TV and Video drama there would be less display of xenophobia by a few individuals and a deeper realisation that we must never let history repeat itself.

As Churchill once said; "In war: resolution. In defeat: defiance. In victory: magnanimity. In peace: goodwill.

This thread has been moved to the Non Air Transport Issues.

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Capt PPRuNe
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

All thoughts with the 1940 Dunkirk Veterans and all those who sacrificed so much in that War: Must add one comment, however, in no way intending to demean anyone who took part in the conflict, which a historian said somewhere:'If the soldiers advancing up the D-Day beaches in 1944 could have foreseen what the UK would have become by the end of the century, they would have turned around then and there'
Not my sentiments, I must add, but a good comment on the present sad state of UK with it's ' low compression side-valve' calibre of leadership.

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Sturmvogel:

That "historian" was David Irving. After his recent libel case, I think we know what to make of him.

Yes, JP Justice, that puts a different complexion on that remark of the 'historian'.Point taken.

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Losing his libel action doesn't automatically make the thinking behind David Irving's statement invalid? As you said, "a good comment on the present sad state of UK today ..."

Lest we forget......... JP Justice condemned Mach78 for even posting this reminder-tribute, and dismissed it as demeaning and French-bashing.

Doesn't do much to boost confidence in the sort of people who apply to become JP's.

JP: Do you really think it's appropriate to use JP in your username (and profile) (a) at all, and (b)if you are going to express such controversial views?
Didn't Judge Pickles get into hot water over this sort of thing?
I accept that JP's hold only a minor position in the court system, but they still perform a judicial function.
I don't pretend to know the rules but, don't you have some responsibility not to express controversial and/or political views publicly - especially if (for some reason :rolleyes: ) you get pleasure out of using "JP"? Expect it goes down well at the golf club :)

Thank you for your thoughtful post Mach78
It's good for us to be reminded, on a specific day, of a specific event in our history. Other such events are remembered on different days, and all such events are remembered on "Remembrance Day".

(I notice that even JP didn't suggest you were wrong in saying the French are rather cosy with the Germans.)

[This message has been edited by enntwo (edited 04 June 2000).]

Snigs, I’m sure there’s an element of truth in what you say about Hitler hoping he could let the British save some face by letting them escape, but isn’t it pretty widely accepted by most WW2 historians that a very misguided Goering was responsible for stopping the Panzers so his (very political, ie Nazi Party) Luftwaffe could claim the ‘final victory’ in destroying the BEF from the air? The Luftwaffe were cock a hoop after Spain, Poland and the virtually unopposed air campaign in France and the Low Countries in 1940 and Goering thought he could induce the BEF and the French troops mixed in with them to surrender to his Air Force. It wasn’t to be, and the rest, as they say, is history.