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-   -   Pay to Fly (P2F) in Asian carriers (https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/557213-pay-fly-p2f-asian-carriers.html)

Long Range Flyer 26th Feb 2015 05:38

Pay to Fly (P2F) in Asian carriers
Hi guys,
Been reading many threads and posts and things look quite difficult for a new comer or someone willing to move to a bigger airline without jet experience.
I'm a turboprop FO with aprox. 2500hrs total time and hold an ICAO ATPL.
I have been looking for a chance to get an upgrade on a jet (either B737 or A320).
Been months I sent CVs everywhere and the same answer kept coming...."You should be a local to be considered and if expat have a type rating and 500 hours on type"
It's challenging given there is no airline in my country of origin and I don't want to be stuck on a turboprop for the rest of time.
The option of P2F is here and if this is what the industry wants, I have no choice.
There are not many reliable P2F options out there.
I wrote to WORLD WINGS AVIATION. They never responded. They neither take your phone calls or reply to any emails.
I wrote to ATRANS on [email protected] and they never replied me back. I phoned them on their number (310) 721-7725 and it seems to be a wrong number. They seem to be working with Asian carriers.
If they exist and are reliable, does anyone have their contacts or proper phone numbers?
Also, I mailed and contacted the guys at Jet Training in UK.
[email protected]
They responded to my surprise.
They are quoting the 500 hours line training and 1 year job contract at EURO 62,000. It's so hard given such an investment with no work guarantee in the end.
I've never expected that one day I will have to think of the P2F option but I will have no choice in the end. :*
Can you guys out there in the industry give some updates on reliable and trustworthy P2F options?
Positive feedback and precise information will be appreciated here.

pfvspnf 26th Feb 2015 08:46

All the companies you mention and Skies aviation are all major scammers! There is no training simply because not many airlines do this sort of training anymore, they have evaluated the risk with the combined bad publicity !

Hang in there , something will work out !

jetjockey696 26th Feb 2015 12:31

Try the famous...

Eagle Jet International, Inc.

kycfi85 26th Feb 2015 15:59

What's wrong with flying turbo props?

LowPassGliderA330 26th Feb 2015 20:34

What you are considering as an "Investment", is just stealing your own job.

In my company we consider all the "pilots" who did P2F as suckers.

You are a pilot, not a whore.

captjns 26th Feb 2015 22:43

Great.... Another putz hell bent on lowering the bar.

Luke SkyToddler 27th Feb 2015 00:05

Let me give you a hint long range flyer ...

Turboprop hours logged with a reputable UK operator, are still worth a damn sight more than cowboy third world 737 hours that you've bought from some shonky SE Asian P2F merchant.

I hate P2F as much as the next man but for :mad:'s sake if you're hell bent on doing it, at least take one piece of advice from me and do it with an EASA operator. Some of the P2F horror stories I have heard over the years from the indo and thai airlines ... there's a reason why they're all banned from Europe put it that way. And, many many chief pilots know who the cowboys are, and they STILL won't touch your CV after you've spent that money.

2500 hours is nothing really, in most of the world outside of Europe you would have absolutely zero chance of getting onto a big jet until you have twice that. My American mate just interviewed with Southwest for his first B737 FO job, 8000 TT, and he was one of the lowest hour guys in the room. Hang tough and that golden phone call will come.

FlashWing 27th Feb 2015 02:02

What's the requirements for applying to the UK/Euro LCCs such as Ryan, or Easy?

Without doing the research, I would've thought you'd be qualified for one or more of them?


Luke SkyToddler 27th Feb 2015 04:22

There's loads of options in Europe flashwing, for the guys who are prepared to wait their turn.

I have no choice
Yeah :mad:ing right

It's just amazing the excuses these guys come up with, to justify their P2F whoring.

_mazz_ 27th Feb 2015 09:21

Hi guyz

I am in the same situation 2500h on light turboprop and no evolution in sight without 500h on jet or on type or on CS25. For European, Asian, Gulf carriers that kind of hours have no value.

For example:
-I apply for EZY swiss at the end of the year, passed the online test with success and received this beautiful email few weeks later "We have now reviewed your application and unfortunately on this occasion you did not reach the benchmark required and therefore your application has not been successful", my sister received the same email, she's just out from school and 300h, but I know EZY proposed the jobs to fresh cadets from CTC.
-Norvegian, I apply at the same time as my father to see how NWG will react (he's a 777keeper, 18000h) He received an answer in less than 10h, until today I received nothing...not even a THX but No.

For Luke SkyToddler, there is almost no opportunities for our kind of profil, either you are a cadet from well-known ATO with contact, or you are an experienced pilot with a lot hours on type (just take a look for Ryanair cadet or 1200h hours, 1000h on CS25 and 800h on type for DFO) but if you are in a middle like us, you are f*cked up on light aircraft.

When I've got my job on light turbo, I was thinking "it's the beginning, 6years later the beginning continue..."During this time, some of my friends went to a P2F scheme, now they are on good company VIetnams, HK airlines, Flyscoot, Garuda, DHL, Emirates. They :mad:ed the job market, most of them are ashamed to did it but now they own 6 to 9000usd each month and I think a lot of young pilot are ready to continue to f*ck the market by P2F.

So for Long Range Flyer, me or others with same profil what can we do? Look some young pilot ready to P2F continuing to pass-over our possible evolution from light to medium jet/prop, dream for a potential phone call "you're hours on light are very interesting..." or considered P2F as a solution. The dark side is very tempting...

pilotcpb 27th Feb 2015 11:32

If you really want to take a risk I can recommend a few casinos in Vegas and Macau.

Hang in there, aviation is a tough business. When you do finally get that job you have been waiting for you won't be out of tens of thousands of your hard earned cash. Some P2F types at my ME carrier will be paying their debt for years.

BAe 146-100 27th Feb 2015 11:48

Regardless of what you read on here, even if you have the money to p2f and want to do it, its getting very very difficult to do it especially in South East Asia. The agents who usually advertise it cannot deliver it due to licensing problems with the aviation authority or a bunch of other reasons. Especially stay clear of agents who say they have p2f in Vietnam.

You have been warned.

Kirks gusset 27th Feb 2015 13:04

Can we assume from the ICAO ATPL not EASA and the obvious lack of English mother tongue that you guys are flying outside of the EASA system at the moment? in which case the advice provided here may be different to that you are receiving...

bamboo30 27th Feb 2015 13:37

Everyone can be a pilot but everyone can or is suitable to be an airline pilot. If you qualify and cannot enter swiss or norwegian have you ever thought maybe you are not airline pilot quality? Might be good idea to self reflect rather than critic the employers for not employing you.

Everyone can play football but not all can be pro

Long Range Flyer 28th Feb 2015 00:24

P2F is the only solution? For some of us, see what we see.
Thanks guys for all the inputs and criticism.
P2F is seen as bad for sure but before insulting guys like us sitting and rotting in the turboprops,here is how we see the world from our shoes:

1. We are flying and living in a foreign country too and have no chance for upgrades to the left seat on the turboprops. Our airlines are not investing in command upgrades for foreigners anymore.
2. We are employed in regional and small carriers. There is no fleet expansion plans and no prospects that the company will expand with jets. Therefore no chance to get upgraded on bigger fleet even as a SFO.
3. As time is passing, like it or not, age is passing. The chance of us SFOs getting hired in second officers programs as opposed to a young local/national is getting less day after day. This is a reality. Ask Etihad, Cathay, Qatar etc. They accept your CV and call you for the interviews. But after passing all the selection, they still will turn to the 220 hour CPL local guy instead of a foreign SFO with thousand hours on a turboprop. I won't mention the EU operators as I don't have a EU nationality to be considered.
4. The small turboprop airlines we are flying for are eventually hiring local second officers/JFOs too straight from school with ridiculous bonds and contracts. We are becoming expensive SFOs and therefore, technically, becoming liabilities. Unless you are a captain, you no longer have any job security.
5. No airline or recruiting agent is bothering to hire you unless you are a local or you have 500 hours on type (JET TIME). I said it earlier and I say it again, I never had the chance to fly a jet as I don't have an airline back home. If my country or national airline (if it existed anyway) never hired me to build 500 hours jet time, you think a foreign airline will hire me??? If there is one,please guys let us know here.
6. Non type rated pilot vacancies are rare and if they advertise, they are looking for people/SFOs who are flying aircrafts above 27 tonnes. I don't know why and from where this weight restriction came. The reality is our turboprops are below 25 tonnes and non of them is respecting the legal definition of weight (5700kg to 136000kg) that classifies a MEDIUM aircraft.

Here is a bit how we guys sitting on the turboprops see the world. We are willing to fly a jet too one day and see the world.
Is P2F the only way to get us there in a jet and established airline? I'm getting worried that the answer is YES in the end.
Would like some more inputs and positive suggestions please. Thank you.

fastos 28th Feb 2015 11:16

@bamboo30 Did you even read his post? How can you say someone might not have the airline pilot capabilities when he, and most of us, don't even get a reply to an application.

kolob666 5th Mar 2015 08:39

Its simple guys.
Only apply to airlines that hire non type rated pilots.
You may need to leave home but in the long run this is the only way to secure your future as a pilot. Every time someone pays for a job flying it steals a few dollars out of their own and their colleagues future pockets.

Roti Canai 6th Mar 2015 04:11

For the Agencies and Airlines involved in this its simple Business to make Money or save it. If People continue to sign up for it then it wont stop.

microkid 7th Mar 2015 10:44

Long Range Flyer, let me give you some advice.

You need to get rid of this misconception that in order to progress, you need to fly a TurboFAN. It`s a common misconception amongst most pilots which may have been true years ago but not in todays industry.

Next Generation Glass cockpit heavy TurboPROPs (i.e ATR 72-600 or DH8-Q400) are career aircraft just as much as an A320/737. Turboprops are coming back in fashion and larger versions (90-100 seats) are likely to be around in the next few years. These are likely to be extremely close to a geared Turbofan so the gap is closing between the turbo-prop/fan perception.

It`s the airline as opposed to the aircraft type you need to be concerned about. For example, I prefer to fly for regional carriers as opposed to LCC`s as the lifestyle can be a lot better. The conditions in LCC`s can be pretty crap to say the least and these operators tend to operate A320/737. Another misconception is that you get paid more in LCC`s compared to the regionals, NOPE, you have to fly more (longer sectors) to earn that extra cash. The days are much longer as a result. Even the conditions in the major carriers for the medium jets are deteriorating in order to compete with these LCC`s.

However there is one exception though, if you have a particular desire to fly long haul then these operators will likely want you to have medium sized jet experience under your belt.

If you want to see the world, go contracting on a large turboprop, you see more of the world than you would just flying long haul. And of course contracting rates for these types of turboprops are just as much (if not more in some cases) than other larger types.

Bankrupt84 7th Mar 2015 12:25

Toughen up long Range Flyer,

Have some respect for your profession and your fellow colleagues.

You are being paid to fly an aircraft, this makes you a professional pilot so don't go F*#king it up.

I have more hours than you and have been living in 3rd world shit holes flying in GA for many years. Would love the opportunity to fly as a FO in a twin turbo prop aircraft.

This profession is going to shit because pilots like you demand everything NOW.

Keep flying for your current airline and wait until the winds change. Your time will come.

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