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-   -   Unbelievable Vietnam Airlines crew paycut due to EGPWS in visual approach!! (https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/464633-unbelievable-vietnam-airlines-crew-paycut-due-egpws-visual-approach.html)

Captain Revolution 25th Sep 2011 14:06

Unbelievable Vietnam Airlines crew paycut due to EGPWS in visual approach!!
 
One expat Captain and First Officer just received a 10 days arbitrary paycut by Vietnam Airlines (the Captain only agency covered the unpaid salary).

The crew was performing a day visual approach in cavok conditions in Danang, report shows that during a descent at 1520ft/min, 238kias they overflew a 1050ft hill at 2642ft RA making the EGPWS trigger PULL UP warning for 3 seconds. According to the company Vice President, Mr.Duc this has been a level 3 event that had to be avoided, disregarding what the QRH says about EGPWS triggering in visual conditions: "During daylight VMC conditions, with terrain and obstacles clearly
in sight, the alert may be considered cautionary."

Is there any of the operators you are working for that treats the EGPWS triggering in a visual approach the same way?

BANANASBANANAS 25th Sep 2011 14:46

This is the sort of thing that happens when you let HR centric people run an operationally centric business.

PT6A 25th Sep 2011 14:50

What aircraft and what agency?

capt. solipsist 26th Sep 2011 04:23

i hope that's just a lack of proper communication on the viet side.

if the pilots are to be reprimanded (and i DISAGREE with the salary penalty), it could be because of airmanship issues:

the hill is 9 miles to the threshold, ideally you should be 2700' over it, and their 2642' is just 58ft low. no big deal here.

however, what could have actually triggerred the alert was their rate of descent. 1520fpm sink rate was too much to maintain a 3deg flt path at 238kts.

that was what was probably being highlighted, albeit in the WRONG MANNER. everybody commits mistakes, and punishment by salary cut does not a better pilot make.

olepilot 26th Sep 2011 16:23

No surprise, None at all!

captjns 27th Sep 2011 07:21

Can anyone shed light on the company SOPs as far the latest one must commence the configuration process for approach and landing at this particular carrier? Is this a repeated violation of company procedures by the crew?

If the crew were non-standard, then counseling may not be an unreasonable route to take on the matter. Pay cut??? Now that form of punishment is tantamount to reducing a child’s allowance.

BacktotheMoon 28th Sep 2011 10:30

I do not know the exact circumstances of the event...If the data are correct (2642ft RA over a 1050ft hill at 9 miles?), they might have been slightly high though. (3692 ft...where my reference would be around 3000ft)


However, it doesn't really matter. I think there is no reason to cut the pay of any crew for events like this. It is also in contradiction with the company's FOM...which says that: "no disciplinary action shall be applied to any employee who openly disclose an incident or safety occurrence...."


There do is this Government Decree on Sactioning Administrative Violations in Civil Aviation...


Article 9. Violation of regulations on aviation personnel, training institutions, training aviation personnel


1. A fine of 500,000 to 1,000,000 for each of the following acts:

e) Members of the flight crew, air traffic controllers, aircraft maintenance personnel performing the task incorrectly prescribed procedure affecting the civil aviation activities that may threaten the aviation security and aviation safety.


4. A fine of between 5,000,000 and 10,000,000 for each of the following acts:

c) Flight crew members control aircraft violating the rules, flight procedures;

So this Decree might be the explanation for the paycut? One might think fligh safety could be improved with good or additional training. But apparently punishing people with paycuts seems the easy, albeit a less constructive way...Sad times for safety indeed.

olepilot 28th Sep 2011 13:42

During my years in VAC all the reports that surfaced ended in the same way,
"The crew has been punished accordingly"

Also I remember the story told by a friend that attended a flight safety seminar for the Asian carriers. The rep from EWA told about a problem they've had in Tapei and how they solved it. VAC had the same problem in Hanoi and when the EWA rep was finished he asked if there were any questions, the VAC. rep raised his hand and asked, "How did you punish the crew?"

Different centuries!

Abulubulu 29th Sep 2011 05:05

Hi All,
I’m not surprised about the happening……
I’ve been working in this environment for a long while, and I truly believe this is unfortunately nothing to be surprised at all…….
The decision taken from VAC headquarters is strictly political, as usual….
Expats are not well seen in Vietnam Airlines.
It’s the usual power play….as they always do with roostering (expats always get worse destinations, or are called anytime as soon as the weather turns to bad or anytime locals don’t like to fly ‘cos are playing volleyball, tennis or whatever…).
This time, ridiculously, they’re trying to show that something happened on an expat flight….even if clearly nothing really happened…..
That crew didn’t do anything wrong…..they operated following Viet Air FOM (assessing that the max vs < 2000 ft AGL is 2000 ft/min ), Airbus and Vietnam Airlines SOP and ATC (requiring not to overfly the city…).
The GPWS alert was triggered for less than 3 sec while overflying an small obstacle, around 2500 ft above it, clearly in sight…..
To me there’s nothing wrong…moreover, checking the QAR datas it looks like to be a pretty well done one!
But still the management of the airline is trying hard to find something wrong…..even denying what Airbus says on QRH concerning GPWS alerts and how to react.
They just prefer to lie instead than loosing face while playing these ridiculous power games!!!!
This wouldn't happen to any local guy.
A strange game that is costing 10 days of suspension/salary to the crew….
Strange is that no one knows anything about any “episode” happening from time to time to local pilots…… Everything hidden……….

Cheers

mach 84 29th Sep 2011 13:11

the local guys are punished too, but you would not hear about most likely,
on the flights to europe, where you have to cross into afghanistan at a given
slot, they did not care until a few months ago, now they do! why? they punish them if they do not cross at the given time and have to fly at a lower level than planned, in relation to monthly salary much more than an expat.
and so for unstabilised approaches and and and......

cris95123 1st Oct 2011 16:06

when i read this topics it looks a lot of pilots dont know what is a visual or vfr approach............there are still some stupid pilots to believe they are on ils while performing visual approach....... 9miles 2700ft ?????? i never read somewhere that on visual approach we have to follow glide path of 3 ° except in cebu pacific airlines ....... requirement for visual approach is to be stabilized at 500"........ anyway as its already said in ATR manual its clearly written under day light vmc conditions an EGPWS warning threshold may be deliberately exceeded ( cf EMERGENCY & ABNORMAL procedures EMER 03.50 page 30)
im not really surprised by typical VAC behaviour, nobody in VAC read any manual.... in cebu pacific as well ......:D

after AIR FRANCE ....... VIETNAM AIRLINES wants to teach to birds how to fly:p

supercooled 2nd Oct 2011 10:11

how about this?
 
Have you heard about capt L _ _ g's hard landing during fo's training...exceeded 2.4G's...whilst VAC's limit's are set at 2.1G's. No penalty, No reprimand, No issues:{, No rumors....hahaha...:D....Just so you know....he's the chief pilot:ugh:...:ugh:

BacktotheMoon 2nd Oct 2011 16:54

Off topic but..."VAC's limit's are set at 2.1G's"...Really, where's that written?

supercooled 3rd Oct 2011 02:24

Well, your FOQA are being generated according to company/safety limits, dunno what your company exceedance limits are, but that's basically your exceedance limit settings. (i.e 32 kts, or 30 kts taxi speeds, >1200fpm v/s below 1,000 ft on final approach.) I guess if i answer too much you would know my MIXIRS position so can't say too much.:zzz:

Leemankin 3rd Oct 2011 02:56

FYI, Load Factor Limitation with Slats and Flaps extended (0G to +2G) A320 FOM, so I guess anything above these limits generates LOAD FACTOR exceedance... You can check these values at your safety division/offices as settings depend on maintenance/airline setting for QDM

B737NG 3rd Oct 2011 09:21

Backtothemoon you can set the parameter as you like it in accodance with the Manufacturers threshould to inspect after a hard landing.

Usualy the operator has a lower threshould at his QAR-FOQA as the Airplane is testet / certified for.

There are certain Operators around the World who exceeded the test flight values and still made it. I remember a 4.3 G-Landing on a F100, 440KTS IAS in a B744, a dented A330 who´s EICAM was full and still made it to destination after the Crew flew thru a CB short after take off.

So the MAX is not the MAX, it is a guideline. Unfortunatly the Asian Culture is asking for punishment and not for education. That is, of course, not written anywhere, You should know it despite the smile in the face, that is to make you die sweet.

I have a long lasting expirience in the "Oriental" Culture, 15 Years inclusive middle East. After a while you know how to hide when the firing squad is out. Fortunatly I am distant since a month now. Taking some time out and then back in the saddle.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

capt. solipsist 3rd Oct 2011 10:56

"Unfortunatly the Asian Culture is asking for punishment and not for education." -- WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY THIS GENERALIZATION?

olepilot 3rd Oct 2011 15:54

No need to shout, but B737NG is right. Maybe "asked" should've been substituted with a different word, but the fact remains. That's the way it works.

Ejector 4th Oct 2011 01:22

Just a way for the gooks to save face :ok:

PantLoad 4th Oct 2011 05:28

Visual Approaches
 
Don't have the FAR Part 121 reference, but the Part 91 reference is 91.129 (e) (2) (i).

In essence, if you're conducting a visual approach to a runway served by an operating ILS, you must remain at or above the electronic glide slope.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

TANUA 5th Oct 2011 14:14

Ejector

You really should have a good look at yourself. That post is pathetic & extremely rude.:=

olepilot 5th Oct 2011 14:30

Ejector could maybe been a tad bit more diplomatic but the facts remains. That's the way it works!

TANUA 5th Oct 2011 14:31

Supercooled

Your comments on a hard landing & the TRE involved are very naive. I know this individual well & he is a very good Pilot & one of "Nature's Gentlemen".
Not everything in Vietnam is as it appears & that is part of the "charm" of the place?:ok:

unwashed 5th Oct 2011 14:55

"1520fpm sink rate was too much to maintain a 3deg flt path at 238kts." 238 KT GS yes, but any tailwind and the correction for IAS/EAS/CAS could easily give you a 276 KT GS.

unwashed 5th Oct 2011 14:59

"In essence, if you're conducting a visual approach to a runway served by an operating ILS, you must remain at or above the electronic glide slope." only between the OM and MM before or after it is really up to the pilot to "do that pilot stuff"

TANUA 5th Oct 2011 15:15

Unwashed

This approach was from the North & they were carrying out a visual right hand circuit at 1500 ft to land to the North-everyone is missing the point-this is much to do about nothing!

They were not doing an ILS but a visual circuit to join the ILS for a landing-its all BS. The conditions were VMC when this event occured.:ugh:

St. Ex 7th Oct 2011 00:53

The EGPWS mode that triggered the event was the terrain clearance floor or TCF. The SOP for this is select OFF the 'TERR' pb on the EGPWS panel on the overhead captain side. The requirements are that the approach is visual and in vmc.

The logic is that on some visual approaches, the terrain is not in the database and the computer reverts to a standard model that does not recognize special procedures pertinent to the specific visual approach at the particular location.

This is in the FCOM 1 in the NAV section.

longobard 11th Oct 2011 10:11

St.Ex,

are you talking about FCOM DSC? If not, i never heard about a "NAV" section in the old FCOM 1.

I never even read anywhere in the world that if "The requirements are that the approach is visual and in vmc." you have to turn off the EGWS. Is that what you mean?

please be more precise on your references. thank you.

ia1166 23rd Oct 2011 14:48

supercooled. Are you a TRE? i doubt it. Maybe before you pass judgement you should try base training cadets.

It's interesting, extremely.

UALSIC 19th Nov 2011 16:31

TANUA what is a "Nature's Gentlemen" ?! :uhoh:

TANUA 19th Nov 2011 23:25

A nice individual who is fair minded, competent & professional in all aspects of life.:rolleyes:

Adrian Cronauer 20th Nov 2011 00:58


Have you heard about capt L _ _ g's hard landing during fo's training...exceeded 2.4G's...whilst VAC's limit's are set at 2.1G's. No penalty, No reprimand, No issues, No rumors....hahaha.......Just so you know....he's the chief pilot...
Air Vietnam pilots never do any wrong. 90% of incidents at Vietnam Airlines caused by the expat pilots. They tell you this during initial and recurrent ground school (The same place where they tell you that you need good altimeters for RMP) :uhoh:

The other 10% are acts of god (at least thats what the local hero said over the last incident in Korea…."that flight not flown by pilots…the god saved them…"

Some history…. A320 chief pilot hard landings, A320 instructor declares mayday over FUNCTIONING auto-thrust (chien) , Vice President hits runway lights when landing in crosswind , A320 Captain nearly hit terrain in Korea, A330 captain allows F/O to hit runway approach lights during landing; A330 TRE captain unstable in DAD; both VN pilots sleeping during flight when intercepted by military; VN pilots have heavy turbulence with injuries but continue flight for 10 more hours; VN pilots in prison for theft in japan, money laundering in Australia, etc, etc.

But Expats cause 90% of incidents!!!:confused:



I know this individual well & he is a very good Pilot & one of "Nature's Gentlemen".
Have flown with him on several occasions mate. He is -- standard -- at the best of time.

Sciolistes 20th Nov 2011 10:01


The crew was performing a day visual approach in cavok conditions in Danang, report shows that during a descent at 1520ft/min, 238kias they overflew a 1050ft hill at 2642ft RA making the EGPWS trigger PULL UP warning for 3 seconds.
2642 RA?
What 1050' hill in Da Nang?

Slasher 21st Nov 2011 02:45

I recall my Pacific days when approaching DAN from HAN I'd
either do a wide left circuit for a visual on 35R, or just go over
the top for the full procedure. A wide circuit in that the island
to the NNE was a pain in the butt for the GPWS (737) during
a visual - damn thing would start yelling its head off causing
the FO to have to reach down and flick it off.

As for the topic I dunno - VN has traditionally tended to pick
on people who are undesirables. Any more to this story that
doesn't meet the eye?

TANUA 21st Nov 2011 03:34

Hello AC-you have been quite for some time & now have a lot of negative comments.

What contribution did you make to Vietnam or VAC other than "head butting" your First Officer over a few quite one's in a public bar?

"Standard at best"-I guess that sums you up ACE.:D

Captain Revolution 21st Nov 2011 07:33

2642 RA?
What 1050' hill in Da Nang?

9nm north of the field...and the airline spread a flight safety notice reporting as the crew being low on the flight path for a visual....

Sciolistes 22nd Nov 2011 13:12


9miles 2700ft ?????? i never read somewhere that on visual approach we have to follow glide path of 3 ° except in cebu pacific airlines
More like 19nm if doing a circuit.


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